Dragon Ball Thread

Dr_Osaka
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Sata Andagi!
I always felt the ending to the Red Ribbon Army was a little anticlimactic; I understand what a powerhouse Goku is and also that it is a comedy more then a drama like it’s later series but even still I think they could have at least gone out on a better note.  
[SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO CARES]  
The story ends with Goku defeating the whole army single handedly and retrieving the Dragon Balls, then after that he goes to Baba to find the last ball which doesn’t show up on the radar, fights her minions to get the information and THEN he goes to fight Pilaf and crew who have the last ball in an undetectable case.
Now there are a few things worth noting about this ending, Like how Pilaf crew are the final villains again, the Staff Officer straight up killing Commander Red after finding out about his selfish dumb wish, and Goku getting closure from his dead Grandpa Gohan which is actually nice. But aside from that I feel like this could have gone out on a higher note for the Red Ribbon Army just because of how integral they were to the plot and also how they would later return with Gero and his androids trying to get revenge.
 
Me personally this is just an idea of how I would have ended it: Goku and his friends all take on the base (Yeah kinda sucks it had to only be Goku and non of they others got to join in) Goku arrives at the top and ends up either taking on Commander Red himself (maybe in a giant robotic suit or something) or Mercenary Tao who would have made for a final fight considering how he is the strongest fighter in this saga not to mention the Crane School which we would see later on showcasing Tien and Chiaotzu and how powerful they were. After defeating the leader and getting the Dragon Balls, they still go to Baba seeking the final ball but instead of Pilaf it’s actually Staff Officer Black who made a quick retreat during the battle against the leader taking one of the Dragon Balls with him in a special undetectable case for just such a situation, then the final battle against the last remaining Red Ribbon member before finally making their wish.
 
There are probably some holes in my story, but the point is that this would have been a good way to at least give the Red Ribbon Army some better closure plus it could also show much like Hydra:  
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And there is truth to that since again they would return as androids to exact revenge and attempt world domination once more.  
Anyways these are just my thoughts on how it could have been approved but hey if other people like the ending the way it is I won’t blame you.
Philweasel
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Right About Everything
@Dr_Osaka  
I feel Black could have put up more of a fight. I liked that Red was a paper tiger, and that by that point the Red Ribbon army itself just toppled like a pack of cards, but it deserved a worthy final battle.
 
…still I think hiring Tao by itself proved they were scraping the barrel.
Dr_Osaka
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Sata Andagi!
Commander Red: Diplomatic Immunity.  
Staff Officer Black: (Shot) It’s just been revoked!
 
Also I can’t help thinking of Dennis now when I see this  
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AC97
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So… does anyone read Dragon Ball Multiverse?
 
Well, I have something to say regarding the webcomic.
 
It’s kind of apparent, how much Salagir favors U16 Son Bra overall.
 
Nowhere is this more apparent than in the Majin Arc, where Majin Bra inexplicably knows things she shouldn’t, like that Cell trained his nucleus to survive wide ki blasts, and what it looks like, how the heroes attacked her one at a time, without teamwork, and how they would, at multiple points, forget about their powers (Buu never utilizing healing capabilities, Cell never using Instant Transmission). The arc having her Senzu Bean heal twice was completely unnecessary, and having the outcome be what it was was lackluster, where she suddenly got talked down after smugly slaughtering almost everyone, her brother included.
 
(It doesn’t help that there was an out of the blue backstory flashback of “oh Vegito said he was gonna kill me,” which even if that wasn’t used as an excuse for the things she’d done, ended in her breaking control, removing the Majin mark, which is unprecedented. Vegeta, per the actual source material, did actually have to resist, he wasn’t “toying with Babidi,” even if he let it happen.)
 
It doesn’t help that it lasted years, and was starting off strong…
Dustcan
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Dogs
Nowhere is this more apparent than in the Majin Arc, where Majin Bra inexplicably knows things she shouldn’t, like that Cell trained his nucleus to survive wide ki blasts,
 
That was the moment I finally gave up on Bra. I’d been neutral to apathetic to her the entire comic but that was such bullshit that I was just done. It’s not even the whole knowing to double tap Cell; I can buy that she might’ve heard his deal at some point in her life - especially considering they were in the same tournament and might end up fighting each other. And she has seen first hand just how ludicrous his regen is. But her being able to flipping see a cell’s nucleus with her naked eye and zap it specifically was beyond the pale.
AC97
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@Dustcan
 
It doesn’t help that the others just stood idly by while she was casually singing to herself and let it freaking happen. Only U18 Bra heard the spiel about “nucleus training,” and he never boasted to U16 Gohan wondering how he came back, after returning, in earshot of U16 Bra, or some such. It’s bullshit.
 
The Piccolos could’ve destroyed the Senzu Beans as a calculated risk to take the Reset Button of “back to full HP” off the table, after she took injuries at certain points, but no, they just get slaughtered, and anything that happened to her was just CTRL + Z’d, because fuck tension, am I right? Or is “oh, I wonder which one gets eviscerated this page” supposed to be “tension?”
 
Buu amounted to fucking nothing except for a failed plan by U18 Gohan, which by the way, established that whichever Gohan teleport-punched Bra could’ve theoretically killed her back then with a Ki Blade (pull a Sauza) in an earlier chapter, where the game was “Defend Babidi,” and if it was U16 Gohan it wouldn’t have mattered, because he thought the Mini Cell Jr would’ve TP’d to Babidi.
 
Salagir just doesn’t get it, if he thought that it would be so much fun to see U16 Bra end that arc with superficial injuries to one leg. If U16 Bra achieved victory in combat, but had a more desperate attitude throughout, because she was actually being worn down and injured, that would’ve been more fun at least, but because she’s the Creator’s Pet, she doesn’t have to actually be challenged, she gets to repeatedly outsmart them.
 
Part of what made Frieza and Vegeta (also applies to him when he’s not an antagonist) fun as villains is how they kept fighting despite sustaining injuries, multiple times.
 
As for another example of how Salagir’s biases heavily influence his writing, well, just look at how ungodly powerful Broly is in that webcomic (DBM happened long before Battle of Gods was a thing, so bear with me) is… yet just look at how Frieza, Cooler, and Cold are handled.
 
It took Cold a Sixth fucking Form to be on par with Perfect Cell (as of the Cell Games, before Super Perfect), and it took that to even put up a challenge to U16 Bra in her base form (and fuck that fight, with the “moved Senzu to mouth offscreen/off-panel” stuff)… and on top of that, it wasn’t even Cold in the driver’s seat to go out of his way to attain such power, it was Ginyu.
 
And as for Cooler, his fight with Future Trunks was kinda pitiful, the stakes too low, because of how outclassed he was (despite the fact that he strikes you as the type to train, but whatever).
 
I know Golden Frieza wasn’t a thing back then, and it’s not like it’s an inherent problem for multiple universes to outclass them overall, but… still. They were just the butt of jokes, as opposed to doing something more interesting, a lot of the time.
 
Just look no further than this old page, regarding an example of how badly Salagir can contrive things in the plot, as per his own words, which the gist of them were basically “he couldn’t win if this didn’t happen, and so it did happen.
 
It’s obvious that Salagir takes a view of “the characters should serve the plot,” as opposed to the other way around, or a more balanced approach, considering how contrived things get, multiple times.
 
I’ve learned from comments on the DBM forums that Salagir also doesn’t thoroughly plan things out all that well (yeah, I know Toriyama doesn’t either, but still). He didn’t go into writing this comic with a good idea of what was gonna happen, beyond some things like “Broly fights Vegito,” and some other things. The Majin Rebellion wasn’t originally planned to have happened.
 
The portrayal of U16 has changed over the years, he’s, in comments years ago, called U16 Bra “spoiled,” which shifted to ”oh, Vegito was abusive, said he was gonna kill her before she got stronger than him, in a flashback,“ out of the blue. (even if there’s missing context… just why?)
 
It’s kind of a shame, that it’s a mess in multiple areas… the Majin Arc had a lot of cool moments, but damn, the bad really sucks, with it devolving into a hellish Idiot Plot gorefest (figuratively and literally), and it’s sad how a lot of it boils down to how much of a failure one character is. She’s just… favored by the author (her being contrived to be undefeated, not struggling due to how powerful she is, her unlikable smug personality), he dedicates a load of attention to her, and she just isn’t handled well at all.
 
A lot of this probably comes down to the fact that he just doesn’t have enough people questioning his decisions, editors.
 
The Android Saga in DBZ would’ve been very different if it weren’t for Toriyama’s editors, with 19 and 20 being the main villains.
TheDog
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Howdy 4 All
Honestly, to me the entire Majin Bra story was one long “look at how awesome my pet character is against all these heroes” before having another Bra come in, say a few things, and make Majin Bra good again. I believe the only reason he didn’t have Goku and Vegeta there was because fans would definitely riot if he had his pet character destroy them too (even though they’re barely a part of the story already).
 
Hell, the comments on that last page are basically readers going “thank God that’s over”, with plenty of people commenting on how anti-climatic the ending is and others defending it. But pretty much everyone is glad its finally over.
Dustcan
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Dogs
@TheDog
 
“Over.” Right. We have a double special now, the first is more Bra (this makes what, her 3rd?) before a few more pages wrapping up Bra’s part in the Majin takeover.
AC97
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@TheDog
 
Now that you bring up Goku and Vegeta, that reminds me of another problem: as is, with how it’s set up, they’ve already gone through all of their character development, so they’re not focused on. U18 Pan turned Super Saiyan, so no character arc there, I guess Uub isn’t being explored all that much…
 
I’d dread seeing Bra vs Gast, if the tournament resumes after that disaster (the Vargas had everything go to shit, because the Tournament got them, and all of the spectators killed, because yeah… bringing a bunch of people from different universes, including Broly couldn’t end badly) if apparently Bra’s problem is that she was being “passive.” What does that even mean? I’ve seen it half-jokingly said that her murder of the other Piccolo by brutally blowing him up (like that Saibaman Vegeta killed) was “Asura practicing for that fight” (that’s the artist)… which reminds me that Bra is also one of Asura’s favorite characters to draw.
 
…And you’re right, it was an excuse for an unrestrained pet to be smarter and stronger than everyone combined, because I guess everyone involved would be the type to have chivalry, when at a power disadvantage, right? (why would that U19 Nedwook guy call out his attacks, directly leading to his death shortly after? Why was Bra the only one to ever figure out that weakness? convenience for her I guess!)
Dustcan
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Dogs
@AC97
 
The “passive” thing is just translation kerfuffling. English is Salagir’s second language and IIRC he does the English translating (he’s French). Based on the context surrounding U18 Bra’s harangue I’m guessing “passive” was meant more like “reactionary” or “lacking agency”, as U16 Bra spent most of her life basically playing catch up to her dad’s legacy or defining herself by her strength in relation to her brother, while more recently being Babidi’s puppet.
 
And yeah as fun as some of the lined up fights look I really don’t know how else they can follow up this arc. We’ve seen a blitzed out battle royale for most of the cast, most of whom were Majin powered up, in the highest stakes you can practically get. And this is all supposed to be succeeded by…a match between Goku and Uub?
AC97
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@Dustcan
 
…Speaking of wonky translation, that second to last page of the chapter, it just… it really didn’t help the impact it was supposed to have, with the wording of that speech. I think I remember reading he has translators, perhaps, but yeah… not ideal.
 
(and yeah, I knew he was French)
 
I meant, what’s it gonna mean as far as whatever Salagir thinks of as “character development,” in this case? Forfeiting the Tournament? …yeah that might quite possibly be too much to hope for, lol.
 
As far as (non-exhaustive) list of a few characters/things I’ve liked in the comic, Zen Buu is fun, Gast is cool, so is Phipsil, Cell, and Raichi… who was done dirty, being gone for good, I liked U16 Gohan going berserk on the Majins because he was done, same for Piccolo vs U8, I’ve liked some of the Universe Specials (one would imagine if the webcomic would have been better off without the tournament setup, just focusing on some of these hypotheticals instead, like focusing on Cell fighting Bojack and his gang if he’d won, or something).
TheSoul70

@Dirty Bit  
Moro is a very boring villain and without charisma the only interesting thing in him was his design since they were very different from other villains .. now he is basically Perfect Cell with everything and absorptions
Dr_Osaka
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Sata Andagi!
Could you imagine reading or watching Dragon Ball in real time?  
When a day in the story passes, you have to wait a day to read on.  
When Roshi is training Goku and Krillin, you have to wait 8 months.  
When Korin trains Goku, you have to wait 3 days.  
In preperation for the 22nd World Tournament, you have to wait 3 years.  
When Vegeta and Nappa are making their way to Earth, you have to wait a year.  
In preparation for the Androids, you have to wait 3 years AND on May 12.  
I don’t know how to judge the hyperbolic Time Chamber, whether 1 day or 1 year.
 
Either way you’d be as old as Master Roshi if you tried watching the series that way.
TheDog
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BEHOLD! Lazy-eyed Bra! Tiny faced Vegito! Drugged-up Pan whose face is sliding off her head to the left!
AC97
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@TheDog
 
Lol, that Vegito face kinda reminds me of something, speaking of faces.
 
The infamous “Bojack Face,”
 
(source [does have a little blood, but not too graphic, meme face is bottom left])
 
…and while I’m thinking of that special, there’s also this “masterpiece” of a page.
 
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…That Special was bad on so many levels. Plot? Did it develop Bojack and his gang? No. Was it predictable? Yes. Was the art bad for that Special? Yes.
 
And speaking of Bojack, as fun as that movie was, him and the others having more of a personality would’ve helped, because they’re rather barebones, no?
Dr_Osaka
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Sata Andagi!
So after rereading the 22nd World Tournament, here are some thoughts I have:
 
It was pretty cool getting to see Yamcha and Krillin use the Kamehameha Wave for the first time in the series, just goes to show how far along the others have come; I also liked how Tien used it as well to show off that it’s not rrally anything special and that anyone (with enough Ki at least) is capable of doing it, and I mean a good chunk of Frieza’s soldiers can do basic beam attacks so it certainly shows how low tier Earthlings started out as before evolving new tricks and powers.
 
Even without Chiaotzu’s technique to switch the numbers, it is quite the coincidence that the Man-Wolf managed to make it all the way through the preliminaries and that Jackie Chun ended up entering the tournament AND they got pitted against each other which lined up with his plan of getting revenge for the moon being blown up.
 
So I always kind of wondered is Chiaotzu suppose to be like a living doll or something, just the fact that he’s emotionless a lot of the time and even moves kinda odd I feel like that’s the case for him. Also was there actually any real reason Chiaotzu tried answering Krillin’s math problems? It’s not like it was a requirement or anything, seemed like Toriyama just needed an excuse for Krillin to win.
 
Also not the biggest fan of the Goku Vs. Krillin fight, granted he had improved a bit so it wasn’t completely one-sided but at the same time I wasn’t exactly on the edge of my seat either it just seemed like a pretty predictable outcome. I feel like the only real reason that matchup existed was so they could show us that Goku’s tail was no longer his weakspot.
 
And of course plenty of great highlights involving the Tien fight, including when he grows extra arms like Machamp; so when Tien said You just wait til it grows back! I guess he was referring to how he can grow extra arms. (or would that actually work the same way?)
Dr_Osaka
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Sata Andagi!
I do have to wonder how the series would play out if Goku ended up going Super Saiyan after Krillin’s first death, after all rage does seemed to be the case for how Saiyans unlock they’re powers (well except Goten anyways).
 
Also I have to wonder if other Namekians have the ability to create other creatures from eggs, cause with the exception of Piccolo Jr. all of the Demon King’s offspring look like random monsters.
Mad Black
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Knowing Toriyama, he probably all forgot about King Piccolos Childre, and that he was supposed to be a Demonking when he came up with the whole Namek Saga. Otherwise, why would there be only ~100 Namekians on Namek? Why wouldn’t they have dragon servants that looked more like Tamburine, Drum or Cymbel? They reproduce asexually and it is supposedly draining their body, but it has been 300 years, and the 100 Namekians were all children of Guro, even the young ones like Dende. There should also be grand and great grand children of him after such a long time. Or were non of them able to make their own children?
Dr_Osaka
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Sata Andagi!
@Mad Black
 
@Dustcan
 
I’m just gonna go with the theory that Demon King Piccolo has dark magic and was able to create monsters through laying eggs like Super Kami Guru does for Namekians. Also because Piccolo is one of his children chances are he doesn’t have that ability.
Dustcan
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Dogs
@Dr_Osaka
 
King Piccolo is a demon. It’s part of being the whole “evil half of god” thing.
 
Piccolo isn’t Guru’s child, he was the son of a different namekian.
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