Religious Disscusion Thread

Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

2 Corinthians 11:14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

I don’t think Paul realized that Satan is still an angel (a fallen angel, but still), or that Job shows that God still enough his company enough for him to hang out in heaven and chat about God’s followers. Makes one wonder which is the real Satan, if either.

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Background Pony #A15E

@Meanlucario
New International Version:

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Protip: everytime something seems weird or surprising, consider checking a translation that is not KJV. Or just start using a non-KJV version as your main.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
My point remains.

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Background Pony #A15E

angel of light

As I understand it, “of light” specifically means the opposite of fallen, an angel who follows God.

Job shows

Job’s story seems to be just that - a story. It aims to show that bad things can happen to good people, and that one should stay faithful to God when bad things happen.

AFAIK the first point was a controversial claim back then. There was a widespread belief that if something bad happened to you, then it was a punishment from God, so you must have done something terrible to deserve it. Countering this belief is the main reason why this story was written.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
Than why have God and Satan just chatting away in heaven like God tasked him to be his “no” man and they like hanging out?

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Background Pony #A15E

@Meanlucario
Satan and God making a bet starts the entire story, provides the plot. It explains why God is putting Job through a trial.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
Still, if they weren’t trying to make them seem like buddies, they did a terrible job at it. And last I read it was Satan that did the trials, not God. God just set the rules for Satan.

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Background Pony #A15E

@Meanlucario
God allowed it. Unleashing Satan on Job was the trial.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
It was Satan who tested Job though, Got just tasked Satan to do so.

I see we are going no where, so agree to disagree?

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Background Pony #A15E

@Meanlucario
Sure, no need to argue semantics.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
Especially when it requires the book we are referencing to be accurate, which I have mention my concerns about before.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

Today is Galatians day for this post.

Galatians 1:10

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

That did not age well, considering how Christianity is so popular that not being a christian upsets people more than being one. This very much feels like Paul talking rather than God.

Galatians 1:19

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

This one is strange to me. What I was taught was that Jesus was God being human for a few years to experience our struggles, hence him saying his family are his followers and not his supposed parents and siblings. So why does Paul say that James is Jesus’s brother and not Mary’s son? That makes no sense unless I’m missing something.

Galatians 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Since when was God “too kool for the rules”? Laws are flawed, but saying that following them is hanging yourself seems a bit extreme.

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

Than why are men and women treated differently in your previous letters, Paul? If they are one and the same, why force in differences as if they aren’t?

On another note, I keep thinking of that passage about how christians shouldn’t sue each other, and I feel like that line started some terrible things. It’s treated like if you call out another christian, you are going against the bible. I have to ask why suing was even on the table to begin with. If two christians are at a point where a lawsuit is being considered, someone/both is/are in the wrong or their communication is in disrepair, because most people don’t use lawsuits for a petty disagreement.

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Background Pony #A15E

Galatians 1:19

The brother part is the source of many discussions and it appears multiple times in the bible. In Matthew 13:55 he is listed together with Judas, Simon and Joseph as brothers of Jesus. The word used is ἀδελφοί. It can mean a literal brother, but it also has less literal meanings.

There are theories that it might mean close family in this case, such as cousins. One indication that they weren’t literal brothers is that dying Jesus asked John to take care of Mary. If she had other sons, they should be taking care of her.

It’s hard to know which interpretation is the correct one.

Galatians 3:13

This is a part of Paul’s rant against Galatians. IIRC they insisted that uncircumcised men can’t be saved. As I understand it, Paul’s point is that one cannot achieve salvation through merely fulfilling the laws to the letter. It’s unlikely that one would never break them even once in their life, and playing a lawyer is not the point anyway. One can only be saved through their faith in God and Jesus’ sacrifice. The parts of the law that were meant to signify the status of Jews as the chosen people, the parts that stemmed from the first Covenant, and the parts that were meant to be an atonement, do not apply to Christians. There’s now a New Covenant and Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. So this is like God offering a new agreement, which supersedes the old one upon being accepted.

that passage about how christians shouldn’t sue each other
It’s treated like if you call out another christian, you are going against the bible.

Huh, sounds like a cultural difference. Here, this part is not being talked about much. It’s treated as just one of those “Christians shouldn’t be evil to each other” verses. The part that is actually being mentioned as a guideline is Matthew 18:15-17.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
The suing part was before this book, it just likes to linger in my head. It comes across to me like it was added later because bad people were being assholes while calling themselves christians and the people in charge of deciding what did and didn’t go in wanted to make people feeling bad for calling them out.

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Zincy

In Vino Veritas

I discovered an interesting church.

Me and the Ms went to a spiritual retreat. It was at this church out near us, very beautiful grounds. It’s definitely a Christian church, but it’s built different.

The retreat was all about spirituality. So for all the booths that had Jesus and Christian stuff there were also Tarrot readings, meditation exercises, crystals, mind/body stuff like Riki, and magic. And lots of LGBT+ expressions.

The church staff were super open, and everyone was extremely nice and friendly.

That is the kind of Christians I’d be willing to hang around.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Zincy
Pretty sure magic is a hard no in all branches of Abrahamism.

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Zincy

In Vino Veritas

Only in modern times.

Ancient Christianity was heavily influenced by Hebrew mysticism, folks religions, and various other sources.

And besides, all religions employ magic if you broaden the term. Magic is metaphysical ritual in order to create some gain, change, or boon in the physical world.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Zincy
Pretty sure the OT didn’t approve of it either.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

I think it was the second book of Saul where a king called the deceased title character and the ghost goes “Well, you’re fucked. God made it clear he doesn’t like this shit, and is preparing your replacement as we speak.”

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

Ephesians 4:26

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Did Paul never read the OT? Wrath is a sin. I’m pretty sure “keep your guard up” would have been more suited for that.

Ephesians 5:24

Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

I just realized why this logic doesn’t work, since Christ is more akin to a shepard with a flock with the church than a husband and wife. Those are very different things unless God decided to take back his disapproval of bestiality. I’m very certain that Paul knows nothing about marriages and is pretending to just to make people happy, and we are still facing the consequences of it to this day.

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Background Pony #A15E

“In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry

Paul quotes Psalm 4:4: “Tremble and do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent.”

New Living Translation (basically a paraphrase of the Bible) interprets this psalm verse as “Don’t sin by letting anger control you. Think about it overnight and remain silent.”

Ephesians 5:24

Yeah, sounds like he’s just telling people to be good by describing behavior that was culturally considered good at the time. We often project our culture onto the religion, but it’s hard to notice ourselves doing it.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

Something I was told when I was young and realize now was BS was that God had Hitler commit genocide on his people for them crucifying Jesus. Jesus’s crucifixion was well after God said that “sins of the father” didn’t work and if God was going to punish people, it would be those who had a hand in the action and not their descendants generations later. Doesn’t help that it’s a view that tries to make Hitler seem better than he was by pretending he was doing God’s dirty work.

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Background Pony #A15E

that God had Hitler commit genocide on his people for them crucifying Jesus

WTF?

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

@Background Pony #A15E
That’s what I was told when I was younger.

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Meanlucario

Time to get spooky

Philippians 1:18

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

I feel like people only pretending to have faith preaching is a very bad thing.

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