Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy. (Politics General)
Vortaxonus
@Background Pony #E201
to be fair, screwing up the covid response is just standard for the republican party.
to be fair, screwing up the covid response is just standard for the republican party.
AaronMk 
Sky funeral
We must remove Philip’s head from his body to make sure the Ghoul Prince remains dead. Anything less will be furthering his crimes against the world’s children.
If we can not have a world purified of the House of Windsor, we can at least make sure Prince Philip remains dead.
If we can not have a world purified of the House of Windsor, we can at least make sure Prince Philip remains dead.
Ereiam 
Monde de merde
@Background Pony #E201
And yet, according to this chart, there is a slew of issues (among which inequality — on which it’s significant to notice that the democrats barely seem to have budged, despite its ever-growing prominence —, government intervention, social spendings, security spendings, abortion, racial issues and immigration) on which the republicans have actually grown more conservative.
Also don’t you find odd that gun control doesn’t feature on it?
And yet, according to this chart, there is a slew of issues (among which inequality — on which it’s significant to notice that the democrats barely seem to have budged, despite its ever-growing prominence —, government intervention, social spendings, security spendings, abortion, racial issues and immigration) on which the republicans have actually grown more conservative.
Also don’t you find odd that gun control doesn’t feature on it?
Background Pony #E201
@Vortaxonus
Cuomo is a democrat.
@Ereiam
I think it should go without saying that any intelligent look at a parties movement is based on a series of issues. Did you expect an analysis to be as simple as “Republicans moved right by x% and Democrats moved left by x%”?
Cuomo is a democrat.
@Ereiam
I think it should go without saying that any intelligent look at a parties movement is based on a series of issues. Did you expect an analysis to be as simple as “Republicans moved right by x% and Democrats moved left by x%”?
Ereiam
Monde de merde
@Background Pony #E201
Still, given the number of significant issues on which the republicans have outright regressed, I think it’s a very liberal interpretation to say they’re merely dragging their heels in the democrats’ wake on the way to progress.
Still, given the number of significant issues on which the republicans have outright regressed, I think it’s a very liberal interpretation to say they’re merely dragging their heels in the democrats’ wake on the way to progress.
Background Pony #E201
@Ereiam
If that’s how you want to view it, sure. I didn’t mean to imply that the Democrats moving more liberal on issues was objectively bad. Some issues I am happy about (Gay rights, drug legalization).
If that’s how you want to view it, sure. I didn’t mean to imply that the Democrats moving more liberal on issues was objectively bad. Some issues I am happy about (Gay rights, drug legalization).
Ereiam
Monde de merde
@Background Pony #E201
That’s true, I guess. Still, on some of those I mentioned (especially inequality and social safety nets, given how concerning those are), they’ve still a long way to go and are clearly in no hurry to match the Overton window of European countries.
That’s true, I guess. Still, on some of those I mentioned (especially inequality and social safety nets, given how concerning those are), they’ve still a long way to go and are clearly in no hurry to match the Overton window of European countries.
MethidMan 
This is pretty much the same argument Person A replied with to Person B.
Now here’s something Person C has said in response to that…
What are your thoughts on “gerrymandering, dark money, lies, procedural warfare, the courts, and legislative power grabs”?
@KikkoMan
The response is pretty poor. His analogy doean’t work since he is comparing flat earth, a scientifically disproven theory, to what amounts to philosophy.If you look at abortion and gun control, broadly speaking neither position is objectively evil. The real problem comes from both sides picking evidence they like and championing it as proof. Part of the issue is Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians essentially speak different political languages. So his analogy fails.
This is pretty much the same argument Person A replied with to Person B.
I can prove (to most people) that the earth isn’t flat. Nobody can prove, for example, that abortion is murder or not. Nobody can prove that rent control helps or hurts poor people (although people have tried). Being against abortion and rent control is not factually wrong or evil but that’s the position that a lot of Dopers take.
Now here’s something Person C has said in response to that…
I don’t necessarily disagree with any of this; I disagree with dishonest arguments about voter fraud in an attempt to try to keep people from voting.If someone wants to claim that the US has a moral responsibility to take down a brutal dictator who potentially destabilizes an economically important region of the world, I can listen to that argument – hell I basically bought into it myself. But Republicans went further, lying about weapons programs and connections to terrorists that were outright falsehoods.If someone is philosophically opposed to single-payer medical insurance, that’s not being unreasonable. Claiming that it will lead to inefficiencies and lower quality care is a fair argument to make – I wish conservatives could be satisfied making those kinds of arguments. Instead they deliberately lie by claiming it will lead to the creation of a bureaucracy that decides who lives and dies.Politicians from both sides frequently over-sell and even outright lie to push their agenda, I agree. The difference is in the degree and the frequency with which Republicans do it. Republicans have given up on winning the war of ideas; they’ve instead used gerrymandering, dark money, lies, procedural warfare, the courts, and legislative power grabs to claim power wherever the Constitution is silent. They are an anti-democracy party. They shouldn’t be listened to; they should be resisted with every fiber of our being.
What are your thoughts on “gerrymandering, dark money, lies, procedural warfare, the courts, and legislative power grabs”?
Background Pony #E201
@KikkoMan
Person C is right in that both sides regularly lie or spin things to their advantage. The problem with having the argument devolving into degrees is where it becomes honestly kinda meaningless. At that point people care more about what is being lied about and how much.
Person C wouldn’t want to admit it but even his own examples are in grey areas. Gerrymandering for example, it IS done by both parties, so the argument falls to degrees, but when you know democrats do it as well who is to say they won’t do it more if they see a need? Dark money is a very complicated issue that I won’t get into, but I will say it is tangled with free speech laws, donors, privacy rights, etc. The courts are the easiest example, especially after so many Democrats have and are pushing to stack the supreme court, both parties have expanded the scope of the government, not just the legislature.
For Person C they see their side as being right, and the other as wrong, so when Democrats redistrict a map it isn’t gerrymandering, it is being fair, when they stack the court it is to bring fairness, but is that the court’s job?
The implication here is the Democrats are the good democratic people party, but the republicans are the power hungry party. If that’s true why is their nomination process “undemocratic”, why do they fight to keep third parties out of debates? These are the things I see, and why I laugh at comments like
Person C is right in that both sides regularly lie or spin things to their advantage. The problem with having the argument devolving into degrees is where it becomes honestly kinda meaningless. At that point people care more about what is being lied about and how much.
Person C wouldn’t want to admit it but even his own examples are in grey areas. Gerrymandering for example, it IS done by both parties, so the argument falls to degrees, but when you know democrats do it as well who is to say they won’t do it more if they see a need? Dark money is a very complicated issue that I won’t get into, but I will say it is tangled with free speech laws, donors, privacy rights, etc. The courts are the easiest example, especially after so many Democrats have and are pushing to stack the supreme court, both parties have expanded the scope of the government, not just the legislature.
For Person C they see their side as being right, and the other as wrong, so when Democrats redistrict a map it isn’t gerrymandering, it is being fair, when they stack the court it is to bring fairness, but is that the court’s job?
The implication here is the Democrats are the good democratic people party, but the republicans are the power hungry party. If that’s true why is their nomination process “undemocratic”, why do they fight to keep third parties out of debates? These are the things I see, and why I laugh at comments like
They are an anti-democracy party. They shouldn’t be listened to; they should be resisted with every fiber of our being.
Background Pony #E201
@Background Pony #E201
Also, just to touch further on my point about how what they are lying about and how much matter more,
Pretend you are a hardcore democrat. Tomorrow the Republican party turns a new leaf, they are now completely honest (and it turns out all their intentioms are pure), don’t try any political tricks, and generally follow every rule perfectly. Would you vote for them? Of course not, because you don’t like the policies.
Now you’re the same person, but you find out tomorrow that the Democrats are actually the super sneaky party. For years they have been manipulating the media, lying to pass laws, and generally don’t care about the rules at all. Would you vote republican? No, because again you support the policies the Democrats are trying to achieve.
Now you could vote third party, but the other side is just too darn evil and if you vote third party the evil guys win.
These are of course extreme examples, but the point is this is why arguing “yeah but they lie more” isn’t super effective.
Also, just to touch further on my point about how what they are lying about and how much matter more,
Pretend you are a hardcore democrat. Tomorrow the Republican party turns a new leaf, they are now completely honest (and it turns out all their intentioms are pure), don’t try any political tricks, and generally follow every rule perfectly. Would you vote for them? Of course not, because you don’t like the policies.
Now you’re the same person, but you find out tomorrow that the Democrats are actually the super sneaky party. For years they have been manipulating the media, lying to pass laws, and generally don’t care about the rules at all. Would you vote republican? No, because again you support the policies the Democrats are trying to achieve.
Now you could vote third party, but the other side is just too darn evil and if you vote third party the evil guys win.
These are of course extreme examples, but the point is this is why arguing “yeah but they lie more” isn’t super effective.
Dustcan 
>That feeling when the hypothetical is just citing reality
But to bring up your earlier point, the big difference is Democrat cheating is (mostly) confined within their own fruity little clubs. They can and will tip the scales all they want in their own conventions, but technically those are private functions and therefore they are allowed to do what they want there.
Yes, once again the Dems have a very convenient technicality to hide behind.
Meanwhile the Republicans are outright breaking the law on top of throwing away norms and customs to rig things in their favor. They both hate democracy, make no mistake, but one at least has the dignity to keep up appearances.
And for the record, gerrymandering is illegal. It’s an open secret that all parties does it, the problem is proving it in the cases where it’s not blatantly obvious.
Dogs
@Background Pony #E201
Now you’re the same person, but you find out tomorrow that the Democrats are actually the super sneaky party. For years they have been manipulating the media, lying to pass laws, and generally don’t care about the rules at all. Would you vote republican? No, because again you support the policies the Democrats are trying to achieve.
>That feeling when the hypothetical is just citing reality
But to bring up your earlier point, the big difference is Democrat cheating is (mostly) confined within their own fruity little clubs. They can and will tip the scales all they want in their own conventions, but technically those are private functions and therefore they are allowed to do what they want there.
Yes, once again the Dems have a very convenient technicality to hide behind.
Meanwhile the Republicans are outright breaking the law on top of throwing away norms and customs to rig things in their favor. They both hate democracy, make no mistake, but one at least has the dignity to keep up appearances.
And for the record, gerrymandering is illegal. It’s an open secret that all parties does it, the problem is proving it in the cases where it’s not blatantly obvious.
Natry 
Constant Lurker
@Vivace
Keep in mind they were also meddling in the Republican Primary. The democrats were in some part responsible for Trump becoming the Republican nominee and eventual president.
Keep in mind they were also meddling in the Republican Primary. The democrats were in some part responsible for Trump becoming the Republican nominee and eventual president.
Dustcan
Dogs
Formal inquiries are now finished and an actual investigation has been launched against Matt Gaetz.
Relatedly there’s a new photo floating around of Gaetz taking a selfie with a bunch of underage women. In a pizza parlor.
Pizzagate was real all along. It was just Pizza Gaetz the whole time.
Relatedly there’s a new photo floating around of Gaetz taking a selfie with a bunch of underage women. In a pizza parlor.
Pizzagate was real all along. It was just Pizza Gaetz the whole time.
MethidMan
Hmm…but then what if you don’t even like the democrats? Here’s a post from Person B again, replying to a post from Person A:
@Background Pony #E201
Would you vote republican? No, because again you support the policies the Democrats are trying to achieve.
Hmm…but then what if you don’t even like the democrats? Here’s a post from Person B again, replying to a post from Person A:
I disagree. It’s you who is dogmatic. It’s “my side poops rainbows, the other side is inherently evil”.There’s no “my side” to this. I’m not tribal. I despise the democratic party. I long for a day that I never have to vote for them again because they’re a bunch of oligarch supporting pieces of shit that only serve to exist as pertual losers, the Washington Generals to the Republicans Harlem Globetrotters.I am not incapable of nuance. I have spent a great deal of my life engaging in good faith debate with people who disagree entirely with me and I am fully capable of engaging with them with a sense of intellectual charity and genuine open mind.You are detached from reality. You think this is about abortion. You think this is 1987 or some shit. Being a republican in 2021 is not about some hypothetical good-faith position on abortion. It’s about being part of the cult. It’s about worshipping Trump as the God-emporer. If he tells you that he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history, you need to believe it. When he tells you the election was stolen, you need to believe it. When he tells you that what your eyes are seeing and your ears are hearing is not what’s really happening, and you can only believe him, you need to believe it.The Republican party is the party of qanon, not principled conservatism. The argument you’re making today is an argument someone could’ve made 20 or 30 years ago. “Both sides are people who want what’s best but disagree how” was true at some point in time.That was long before the time where qanon conspiracy theories are essentially the official platform of the party today. They are unhinged, they are anti-democratic, they exist only to hate people who they view as outside of their tribe. Their only motivation is spite.The fact that you can’t see this and you’re lecturing me like I don’t understand that people can disagree with me without being evil or detached form reality means that you have completely lost touch with reality. You fail to acknowledge what the Republican party has become today.We’re not talking about rent control. We’re not talking about abortion. We’re talking about whether Global Warming is real. Whether Covid is a massive worldwide hoax. Whether the last election was real. We’re arguing whether reality is real and you seem to be completely unable to understand the massive shift that has happened in recent years.It’s dangerous. Part of your dogma is to equate opinion and morals with facts. You compared “flat earth” with Republican opinion, which is silly. I can prove (to most people) that the earth isn’t flat. Nobody can prove, for example, that abortion is murder or not. Nobody can prove that rent control helps or hurts poor people (although people have tried). Being against abortion and rent control is not factually wrong or evil but that’s the position that a lot of Dopers take.Do you even understand what the fuck it is that republicans are talking about these days? How can you have your head so far up your ass that you have no idea what the actual fucking discussion and agenda is within the party? They’re not having debates about abortion, they’re having debates about whether they should openly embrace a made up qanon reality… and the qanon side is winning.I also think it’s lazy. It’s easier to decide that one’s political opponents are wrong in everything rather than try to understand the nuance of their positions or learn from where they are coming from.You’re the fucking lazy one, because you don’t ever have to change your ideas to fit the facts. If the Republicans make their official logo the swastika next year and advocate a policy of killing anyone that isn’t white, you’ll still be on here saying “now now guys, your opponents aren’t evil, you’re just exaggerating because your mind is too small to understand that just because someone disagree with you doesn’t mean you’re evil”I’m sure you were making these exact same arguments 5 or 10 years ago. If the absolute deliberate descent into batshit cult status for the Republican party didn’t change your mind about them, what would? Nothing. That’s why you’re detached from reality. That’s why you’re dogmatic. You just assume that anyone declaring the other side evil must be simple minded, and you are unable to actually observe the real world and conclude, “oh, wait, holy shit, there’s some crazy shit going down right now. Things are outside the norm right now. Maybe my old lectures about both sides being good faith participants with different opinions doesn’t apply in the current circumstances.” You’re giving us the same lecture you were probably giving people 20 years ago, totally oblivious to how reality has changed.
kleptomage 
@KikkoMan
Reminds me of when idiots say something to the tune of “Well, both sides are stupid.”
It’s true, but it misses the whole damn point that Republicans are far worse. It wasn’t a Democrat who, on national live TV, called for an ongoing vote to stop and declared himself the winner of the election before all ballots were counted. It wasn’t the Democrats who refused to deal with a pandemic that has killed over half a million Americans. It’s not the Democrats who openly hate democracy and are currently trying to prevent people from voting.
I’ve no love for the Democratic party, but to try to say both sides are the same right now deserves only scornful ridicule.
Reminds me of when idiots say something to the tune of “Well, both sides are stupid.”
It’s true, but it misses the whole damn point that Republicans are far worse. It wasn’t a Democrat who, on national live TV, called for an ongoing vote to stop and declared himself the winner of the election before all ballots were counted. It wasn’t the Democrats who refused to deal with a pandemic that has killed over half a million Americans. It’s not the Democrats who openly hate democracy and are currently trying to prevent people from voting.
I’ve no love for the Democratic party, but to try to say both sides are the same right now deserves only scornful ridicule.
Dustcan
Dogs
Tucker Carlson: White Supremacist Mass Shooter Copycat | The Daily Show
He’s got the right idea but he’s going about it backwards. He should be asserting that Tucker radicalizes white supremacists into mass shootings. Because he does.
He’s got the right idea but he’s going about it backwards. He should be asserting that Tucker radicalizes white supremacists into mass shootings. Because he does.
Background Pony #E201
@KikkoMan
Ah, he assumes all Republicans follow Trump and qanon. If you hate both parties you have a choice, ignore it all, vote third party, or try to change the party that agrees most with you. It’s surprising the amount of people who vote for a person not because they like him, but because they just hate the other guy more. At this point the two major parties basically run on the idea. The Dems do deserve credit though for seeing that Biden can pull votes from the blue collar voters he took in 2016.
Ah, he assumes all Republicans follow Trump and qanon. If you hate both parties you have a choice, ignore it all, vote third party, or try to change the party that agrees most with you. It’s surprising the amount of people who vote for a person not because they like him, but because they just hate the other guy more. At this point the two major parties basically run on the idea. The Dems do deserve credit though for seeing that Biden can pull votes from the blue collar voters he took in 2016.
Dustcan
Dogs
Closing in on the 3 full months since Biden has taken office. Does he have his full cabinet filled yet?
Background Pony #4EAE
Closing in on the 3 full months since Biden has taken office. Does he have his full cabinet filled yet?
Just about. They still need to nominate someone as director of the Office of Management and Budget (that was the position Neera Tanden would have held before she withdrew from consideration), and the confirmation of the director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy has yet to go through. Other than that, I believe all the positions have been filled.
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