@Scrounge  
Not okay with Discord either, but there it was clearly a necessity seeing as they likely can’t kill him without a huge damage to the world (seeing as he is one of the elements that are an absolute must in the universe) and can’t reliably trap him either. I still think this solution is bonkers though as he will definitely go mad as soon as Fluttershy dies.  
I would be okay with EQG banishment as I indeed don’t like that stuff and never watch it, so for me it would effectively rid the show of Starlight, which is a rather good solution. I don’t like Sunset anyways so no real difference if EQG will now have both characters I dislike :D
 
That being said, magic removal IS possible. One needn’t go further than those Olympic games where there was a field that cancelled out magic of everyone inside. I think suppressing horn rings were also a thing. And come on, if Tirek can steal magic and magic is capable of translocation, changing or removing cutie marks and time travel, don’t you think there will be a spell to rid ponies of magic or suppress it? Sure, it must be forbidden, would have its limits on how much you can suppress (can’t suppress a demigod of chaos for example) as well and probably only alicorns know of it, but I refuse to believe than in all those years of their reign they didn’t have to strip magic from dangerous and unstable unicorns, especially seeing their apparent distaste towards harsher punishments. This just doesn’t make sense, so by this logic and what we’ve seen in the show it must possible.
 
Also, there is no proof which theory of time travel they used in the episode. You can say the changes were undone but there is no proof of it. For all we know these alternate timelines continued to exist and Starlight simply jumped between them (simultaneously creating new ones) until she decided to go back to the timeline from where they came. Sort of Rick and Morthy style? Where every important decision you make creates a separate dimension, thus creating an infinite amount of realities for pretty much any possible scenario? Well, thanks to Starlight there is a bunch of really miserable ones now. She goes back in time and alters history, thus creating a branch/dimension/time line that never existed before. Then she goes back in time to another time line and creates yet another branch. If the spell is so extremely theoretical it shouldn’t even be possible, I doubt Twilight nor Starlight know how exactly it works, so they might very well have left multiple time lines with distopian worlds after they’ve left for their original one.

@ViperBits  
Implying guns commit crime even though cities with tighter gun laws consistently have higher crime (and even if that’s a cause and not an effect, it shows those restrictions don’t work).
 
Implying the US was the only Allied country to bomb the crap out of cities. Berlin probably got it worse.
 
Implying the bombs didn’t save millions of lives from Operation Downfall.
 
But I’m not going to have this whole conversion again. Just read the whole discussion here. And reply there, it’s a more appropriate place for it
 
As for tyranny - I have a feeling those numbers aren’t genuine, and a result of propaganda, not being allowed to be honest and make the state look bad and corruption turning a blind eye to crime that bribes or benefits the right people. Not to mention, even if that did work, something the rest of the world doesn’t seem to understand is that in the US we believe freedoms are an intrinsic good, not just some luxury that you can take away to reduce crime.
 
Not to mention this “solution” is like curing a disease by killing the patient. A tyranny creates far more misery than any sane amount of crime ever could. Not to mention tyrannies often end up dysfunctional and horrible to where there’s far more crime in them that’s not even reported.
 

 
@Scrounge really got all the relevant parts. And she didn’t create those horrible alternate realities. That came from the villains. And those alternate realities don’t exist any more. You can’t punish someone for what they did in another reality or you might as well start policing dreams.
 
I mean, look at the chrysalis timeline. Starlight didn’t do all that. Chrysalis did. All Starlight did is stop some kid race.
 
You can’t hold the admissions officer that didn’t let Hitler into art college responsible for WWII.
 
At best you can say Starlight attacked a child, but that didn’t even happen in “reality”. So things start to get weird.
 
And she knew that events would keep getting overwritten at that point, anyways, so it’s a bit like punishing someone for doing something in a video game. It was a weird reality altering situation where actions didn’t have consequences like they normally do. Consequences kept being easily undone. Crimes of that nature, with little or no consequences, are usually considered the least major.
 
And even then Scrounge made some pretty solid points. The person who knows this happened and has the power to act, naturally trusts her own ability to monitor this pony.

@ViperBits  
A: I never said without punishment. I’m just saying that killing her might be too far.
 
B: Magic removal might not be possible, or possible only through horn mutilation. Unless, of course, you want to feed her power to Tirek, but that seems like the worst possible idea. The closest option that’s definitely, canonically available would be to put her where there is no magic, i.e. the Equestria Girls world. Which was the solution I suggested back when this debate was new, and an idea I still think has merit. No magic, presumably no actual cutie marks, and I feel like Sunset might have been more qualified to act as her parole officer than Twilight was. But I’m guessing you don’t like Equestria Girls and are mad I brought it up.
 
C: The time travel stuff had all its changes undone and the spell was sucked into a time vortex. The only evidence is the testimony that might be given by Twilight, Spike, and Starlight herself. And considering that Twilight herself, an expert on magic, was shocked that such a spell was possible, it’s likely that testimony alone, no matter how reliable the witness, would not be enough, simply because of the nature of the events. Even a confession might come across as either mocking or just plain delusional.
 
D: Since Twilight is a Princess now, it’s possible she has the authority to issue a pardon, and that’s why Starlight was not punished.
 
E: So you’re mad that Starlight isn’t in jail or whatever, but you’re okay with Discord and Fluttershy’s little tea parties? :P

@Cirrus Light  
I am not from USA, our prisons seem to actually be better and crime rates are lower even despite incompetence of police and immensely crappy level of life and such. That is probably because we have restrictions on gun possession… That being said, if your jail and judicial systems are a mess (like most American institutions and spheres of economy), this doesn’t mean it can’t work in other countries too. I think this is a debate with no real definitive answer. Both ways should work to some degree, one being better in certain scenarios but worse at others. I think we won’t know what’s best until someone tries it. I have seen a lot of examples where rulers of authoritarian countries almost completely eradicating crime simply by incredibly harsh punishments. Sure, lots of innocents died but it worked in the end and the crime-ridden country became near perfect crime-wise simply because most people who deserved it were dead and others were too scared to even try. Brutal? Harsh? Maybe, but it works.
 
I am not saying we should go full berserk like that, but we sure do need to reevaluate laws and the way they are handled to ensure guilty parties get what they deserve. I am an idealist too, hence I believe that even people with money and in power will one day bow before the law and answer for the lives they’ve ruined. Seeing as I am from Ukraine my last years have been ruined as well, mostly by USA and its ongoing cold war against Russia where bright heads who knows where decided it was a good idea to stage a fake revolution and then insert a puppet government of theirs to use an entire nation as a meat shield and a puppet in a financial and influential war against ‘the enemy’ who didn’t even do anything to them until provoked. I hope that even acts like dropping two nuclear bombs on civilian cities will one day be punishable, no matter if offender is North Korea of the mighty and all-good USA… But right now? No, there is no justice. People responsible for true acts of crime and making this world the toxic dumpster it is today deserve a fitting punishment, and I sincerely hope that one day they will get it.

@Scrounge  
I never watched the episode to the end, it was too bad and my hatred for Starlight made me quit the show and pretty much the whole fandom right then and there. I’ve seen and heard all the spoilers I need though. I am not saying that she had to be executed on the spot, although that IS a potential solution. From how I see it she brainwashed and forcefully held captive an entire village of ponies for who knows what while simultaneously committing the crime of ripping away their entire essence and nature. That alone should be punishable, but then she went on to assault royalty with obvious purpose of killing (that death beam), and then escaped only to return with a break-in and abuse of what’s clearly forbidden magic to time-travel and ruin a bunch of alternative timelines in which everyone now has to suffer the miserable existence Starlight forced upon them. Then more attack on royalty, attacking a foal (RD) and a bunch of other stuff that isn’t destroying entire worlds.
 
After that she is forgiven because apparently it is alright to go on crusade against ice cream and its very inventor after you dropped a cone on a hot day and decided you didn’t want to buy another one from a stall literally several steps away from you. So she is accepted into the group of element bearers and allowed near the magic table thingy which is her source of power for the time travel spell that can ruin everything in the first place. She also suffers absolutely no restrictions or punishments and instead is given magic lessons and knowledge that make her only stronger. And just like that she later goes on and does exactly the same thing where she brainwashes the elements, the national heroes and protectors of the world just because she felt like it. And surprise-surprise, she gets zero reprisal once again, even despite the incident showing she is irresponsible and not changing, suggesting that she might go on another ice cream crusade at any minute.
 
So no, even despite her giving up when pushed against the wall and such, her crimes and her stupidity to power ratio are simply too high to let her go without a punishment. Now death might have been one of them, seeing her obvious danger and how unstable and oftentimes downright stupid she is. But! A much more fitting solution would be permanent or temporary magic removal. She can learn all she wants about friendship and viewing others as more than an inferior puppet to brainwash and play with using your magic but only when she has no magic to harm them with. This would make her stay in the castle safer for everyone involved, as well as provide a very powerful motivation for her to change if she ever wanted to get her magic back. Becoming responsible and finally growing up and no longer throwing childish temper-tantrums would mean she deserves her magic back and that she changed to some degree. But the way they handled it in the show? Absolutely stupid and downright wrong, which is one of the reasons I left. She could have went on another quest against cutie marks, and I believe she would have if only she had any idea how she could achieve it, seeing as time travel and brain-washing/stripping villagers of their essence didn’t work… In short, the show went downhill in terms of quality and logical sense, and has been going for a while. Starlight is just one of the easier examples to show how stupid their way is.

@ViperBits  

 
And just to get things back on topic, you do have to admit that Starlight surrendered of her own free will when she very clearly could have pushed it that last little bit and claimed victory (albeit possibly a Pyrrhic one) over Twilight.

@Cirrus Light  
But, I dunno. I do realize some human beings are just absolutely awful. Some.
 
But the mere thought of being falsely accused into that hell makes me envious of Starlight’s position in this image.
 
She’s cute, though, so maybe someone would at least feel sorry for her (fun fact: women are 4x more likely to get off death row than men).
 
I was probably a bit too rude in that comment, but dehumanization of a group is a hell of a thing you must avoid, and I’d rather be dead than become cold hearted.
 
But anxiety is a hell of a thing, too, so I should probably just stop about this for a day or two.

@ViperBits  
“Rid society of the undesirables”, huh?
 
It’s very disturbing how much a country that claims to be a bastion of freedom dehumanizes prisoners, makes so many of them, and is so unbothered by convicting innocents.
 
Am I certain that lesser sentences and viewing prisoners as human beings capable of change instead of subhumans will make a better society? I’m certain enough to desire our society to do it, and the numbers for first world nations per capita prison and crime populations support it.
 

 
And at least people are living free and can defend themselves in their home, and the anxiety lasts minutes at most.
 
Unless the criminal has imprisoned the person for years, or is especially and unusually cruel, they cannot come close to the psychological pain the state inflicts. The imbalance of power creates a powerful psyche of abuse and bullying, and it’s very true that bullied people often become bullies.
 
Guards can often be far worse human beings than the ones in the cells.
 

 
I do find the sheer dehumanization and contempt, and refusal to believe that people can change with which you speak, to be wonderfully authoritarian, though.
 
But to more directly respond, you paint a picture where laws are ineffective. People always either get mad and want revenge or don’t care and go back to their ways. You paint a pessimistic picture of the current prison system, one that I think is all too accurate.
 
I’m saying let’s use psychology to make a system (which includes -  
and even is primarily - attitudes and culture, not just laws) that actually rehabilitates, not the current one which seems to have led you to believe that such a thing is impossible, because it fails so spectacularly.
 

 
I’m also a bit of a futurist, though. I think if only psychology could make some real progress then you could sort this issue out. They sure figured it out for Skinnerian training, though.

@Cirrus Light  
Of course you can never be 100% sure, but that’s just life. I am not in the loop on research on the topic and such, but I know about the general nature of research in touchy fields enough to not blindly trust it. Oftentimes data are tampered or results are completely fabricated just to support a certain idea or notion. That being said, there is a saying that needs of many outweigh the needs of few. If it takes 4% of innocents to be convicted to a painless death to clean society of the worst scum out there… well, perhaps this is a deal we’ll simply have to endure. It sure beats those assholes going unpunished and ruining the lives of far more people than would be convicted on false accord anyways. And I don’t really see how lessening the punishment would help. People don’t change - if the punishment is too big they will think you’ve ruined their lives and will want revenge since they have nothing to lose. Too small and they won’t be scared to do it again, thinking that this time they will be more clever and won’t get caught, and even if they do the punishment isn’t too harsh anyways.
 
And the middle ground… what if I tell you there is no middle ground? What if people really don’t change and both of the things I’ve mentioned above are simply excuses? What if it is more about an exceptional force of will or certain personality that makes people alter their behavior than the punishment? What if no matter the sentence you give the majority of convicts (excluding those who shouldn’t have been convicted in the first place, I am talking about real convicts here) will still refuse to become better and leave their past behind? People are complex, very stupid and oftentimes unpredictable beasts. Can you honestly tell me that you are 100% certain this is not the case and that your proposal will definitely do more good than mine or even the currently existing system?
 
@Scrounge  
I know, this was frankly just the first thing that came to my mind. Forensic science as a whole is a relatively new field that has already shown tremendous potential. With the latest improvements in neural networks data from video feed can almost be analyzed without requiring human supervision - machine recognition does all the job. So even with our current number of cameras if we connect all of them into one system and let those algorithms continuously search for faces of known criminals or any illicit activity they capture, I am sure we can increase chances of their capture and reduce response times of law enforcement units. And once again, this is just one of the ideas.
 
Military sphere is testing small drones right now, aka insect level small drones, dragonflies and whatnot. Those can potentially be used to collect irrefutable proof on the suspect such as voice recordings before arrest is made. And I am not even talking to how many people are voicing their ideas and even plans for illicit activity on Internet and in private chats. I would hazard a guess that our privacy here is also subjective and can be easily breached were we under investigation in any serious crime, thus providing even more evidence, direct or not. And I am sure in the future there will be even more ways to track illicit activity and collect proof, as well as catch criminals. More criminals too, that’s for sure. Better get ready to deal with them while we can. Although I suppose reasonable leniency should be allowed for those who gave themselves in on their own accord…

@ViperBits  

 
Leaving aside any possible allusions to Orwell and debates on the morality of this sort of surveilance, which can frankly be argued either way, I’m just gonna point out a few ways in which such surveillance might fall short of your expectations. For starters, there’s a budgetary limit to how many cameras you can put in the air and how many people you can have monitoring the feed. Then there’s the issue of the signal itself getting interrupted. And good luck getting them inside buildings.
 

 
@ViperBits  

 
I think the point is the distinction between “take no prisoners” and “yes, take prisoners”. Or in other words, basically “we’ll go easier on you if you come along quietly”, but anyone who pulls a knife brought it on themselves if you pull a gun.

@Cirrus Light  
While I understand much of what you said within this comment section, and even agree to a point. However, this attitude about Justice is something I DESPISE, because it reduces Justice to only the punishment. It’s not. It’s also about protecting the innocent.
 
Honestly, I know I should go into further detail, but right now I’m a bit emotional, so I’ll hold off on that.

@ViperBits  

 

@ViperBits  
I meant for a short reply…
 
Eh, this seems at least somewhat fitting for a picture of an execution.
 
You’d hope people would be intelligent enough to only use the death sentence when it’s appropriate and there’s enough proof. The only issue is people aren’t scientists and their proof often isn’t good enough. One study found maybe 4% of death row inmates are innocent. Even when there seemed to be absolutely conclusive proof, people can still often be mistaken
 
It’s still arguable, but you should at least be aware that “be super sure” is still not too good. Studying science, guessing reality is very hard, and most people just are horribly ill equipped to do it. From this perspective, I’d be surprised if it was as low as 4%. 4% is 1 for every 24.
 
And that’s for the ultimate punishment that people try to be as certain as possible about.
 
Most people walk away from a conversation thinking they got it, but didn’t. Most people that think they understand a concept really don’t, and arguments go on because they usually talk past each other and aren’t even on the same page. Humans really aren’t too good, naturally, at figuring things out. Especially not when emotions like anger or fear get involved.
 
I’m not saying you should let dealers off Scott free. What would even be the point of law, then? I’m saying I don’t like our vindictive, punitive, self-righteous and certain attitude many people carry about the law and punishment. And it greatly disturbs me that there’s no good way to discern actors and sincere change better.
 
Plus, something they found with England’s blood code was that lighter sentences mean people are more willing to convict. So if you really want to punish and deter criminals, lighter sentences might work better, ironically.
 
But try making more appeals to logic and less to emotion. Anger turns men into mobs.

@Cirrus Light  
Perhaps for the drug crimes sure. I wouldn’t personally punish the addicts who buy them, sending them to rehab is indeed a better option. But for those who sell them? A hefty prison sentence for ruining lives of other people by making them addicted. Even if that person was weak enough to try drugs and get hooked up on them, it was still THEIR fault that person got to have drugs at all, as if no one was selling them no one could buy them. And since drugs really aren’t supposed to be in this world this is the policy I support. As for heftier crimes like murder, grand theft and such? Well… I don’t believe people change, at least not adults and not in a meaningful way unless you give them a heck of a stimuli. So a person who thought he could trick society and rob a bank and ended up shooting several people instead of doing honest work to earn his keep? Or a guy who got mad enough at not being able to have/possess his girlfriend and killed her new boyfriend and the girl herself? Buck those guys, death penalty. If their crime can be justified in any meaningful way alternatives may be used, but otherwise they are useless to society and can bring only harm, there is no sense in keeping them in prisons either as people don’t change. So… yea, bring back the death penalty, it worked :\
 
And sincere? One out of 5? So what, do we say “it is okay” and pat on the back all five of the criminals before letting them go? Come on, perhaps you want to say it is okay to ISIS and other bastards who are ruining the world today? All those emigrants destroying Europe exactly because it grew weak? All those terrorists causing death and pain to innocent people every single day? With harsher penalties the process of determining whether the person is guilty or not will surely be more thorough. We have advanced tech now, soon there will be surveillance drones and whatnot, so there will be less innocents getting charged, therefore we can give criminals what they deserve more freely.
 
And in the case of that ‘fight to the last man’ deal, do you really think that drug syndicates will somehow stop their business on their own if you catch and then let go of their dealers and such? Or perhaps you need to jail them until there are no people willing to risk it for the pay, forcing syndicates to raise prices, therefore rising prices on drugs and making it less appealing for new people to try them as it will be harder to get a fix? Plus in ideal situation government should track down those bastards to the very core and then wipe out the entire syndicate. This might not be the “western way”, but I believe it would still work. In any case, I believe this is not the right place for continuing such discussions, wouldn’t want this whole thing to be wiped out because it is off-topic >_>

@Scrounge  
The problem with taking no prisoners is you encourage your enemies to fight to the last man.

@ViperBits  
She still surrendered when both she and Twilight knew damn well that she could at least force a stalemate with no end in sight, and the sky’s the limit for how bad the worst could turn out. She turned herself in when she had no reason to believe she would lose; in fact, she was literally about an inch away from destroying everything Twilight held dear when she gave in.
 
You must show some measure of leniency to those who give themselves up voluntarily, if only to make doing so preferable to “fuck it, I’ll take my chances”.

@ViperBits  
It’s a viewpoint that justified the Blood Code (which hanged a single mother for stealing bread to feed her baby), and a position taken by most Middle Eastern countries.
 
If I’m falsely taken in for something or did something stupid or on accident I’d rather be in a society of “weak” people.
 
And Spain and (I think it was Sweden?) have proved you wrong with the decriminalization of hard drugs. They’re still illegal, but the penalty is more about rehabilitation - and in Sweden(?) they even have free access to more - than punitive measures. The result is way less crime and way less prisoners, as well as less drug related fatalities and crimes, all at a lower cost to taxpayers (people you haven’t completely cut off from being able to contribute to society).
 
Starlight’s a fine example - if they’d vilified her she might’ve just gone to war with them again. And that’s the problem. You take people - consumers and buyers who help the economy, sometimes even upstanding citizens - and make them “criminals”. Now they’re bitter and their lives are usually ruined. Nobody will hire them, and if they thought they might could turn their lives around - well now you’ve pounded into their head through concrete cell that they’re not “people”, they’re criminals, so what should they do if they struggle to survive, now?
 
You whack at the leaves and in so doing you make the roots and stem stronger. They do crime because they feel hurt and have needs, and often want to belong - so you hurt them more, deny them their needs, and tell them the only people they belong with are criminals - then you wonder why you have a larger prison per capita than totalitarian police states, and much larger than any other developed country.
 

 
You may think it’s naive, but really being punitive is naive. The numbers show it, at least in the case of drug crimes.
 
And also, what of the people who are sincere? I’d rather let ten criminals go free than punish an innocent person. Does that extend to penitent people as well? What if you knew for sure that for every 5 people who faked it for the sympathy card, there was someone who is sincere?
 

 
It’s easy and natural to be mad at someone. But it really takes a spine to be mature and do what the situation logically calls for rather than always being punitive.
 
It’s not that you can just forgive everything, but I think a lot of things should be reevaluated in light of good, hard, science. And too often people call vengeance justice, and carry out their little self-righteous crusade against people who really don’t deserve it.

@Cirrus Light  
That is a very slippery line of thinking you have going on there. In my opinion our world is NOT too punitive, in fact I believe it is not punitive enough, at least to those who truly deserve it. By advertising that all evil and wrongdoings should not be punished society might end up with more people thinking it is alright to do the bad thing if they choke up a sob story and say ‘sorry’ in the end, and even that only when caught doing it. Since it is obviously not true, kid shows shouldn’t teach these spineless and completely delusional ideas to children - it will only muddle their moral compass and make them weak. But hey, that’s just an opinion, feel free to disagree.

@Seiya-Meteorite  
Being Twilight’s student is her punishment.
 
Naw really, though, it’s turned out fine. Once the threat is neutralized, I find justice doesn’t often differ much from revenge. Also bear in mind Starlight wasn’t defeated. She submitted and quit without being forced to. That means a lot. Our world is far too punitive, petty and self-righteously violent to do something that mature.

This is quite perfect, it is, and though it’s a year old, I agree with Background Pony #5386: I know this is a kids’ show and you can’t have gritty grimdark stuff and such but the problem is the show is way too forgiving, Starlight still should have deserved some punishment for her actions.

Best ending ever

@Background Pony #0B01  
Yes. Every grimdark picture is a request to the creators.

Also that pic  
ow the edge  
You guy still think the writers will turn an optimist show for little girls called >>>>FRIENDSHIP<<<< IS MAGIC into a gritty reboot a la Game of Thrones becasue you complained on an internet forums.This is what is marked plain as day on the tin,nowhere was it indicated that the show was going to be some grandiose analysis of the darkness in mankind heart or Shakespearean tales of betrayal and woes.No,the show was always meant to be optimistic and if there is a thing that a genration of cynics cant stand,it’s optimist in any forms

@Background Pony #5B3F  
>fan of the fandom

@mrdoctorderpy  
I could have, but then the quality wouldn’t be as good. =D