Silver_lining

@genervt
@Badumsquish

Uh, no, callousness is very much a strike against moral code, especially when it’s personnel responsible for the safety of others.

And while I may not like Spitfire as much as I used to, I’m certainly not going to wax hatred about her.

Look, as my brother pointed out to me, the episode wasn’t the best written, and in all likelihood the writers weren’t overthinking it as much as we are. They wanted an example of a more extreme Rainbow Dash who didn’t care if others got hurt in the process of proving herself, and they took some shortcuts in the writing. There’s probably a dozen ways they could have improved that episode.

But none of us are budging in our mindsets, and bias and hatred are creeping into the conversation. We’ve all spoken our piece, so I think it’s best if we all agree to disagree and move on to something else.

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@Badumsquish
I hope that won´t happen because I liked their friendship and hope they become a team again (Rainbow Dust).

But if your right then incompetent Spitfires stupid face would be the best moment of the season. She really, really, REALLY had that coming.

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Badumsquish

ᗡ: 📶 📡

@genervt
You know what would be awesome too though? If just by her actions she proved she was a good person and reconciled with Dashie. Then Spitfire approached her and was like “I was wrong about you and I want to give you a second chance in the Wonderbolts”, and Dust replied “Uh… no. I don’t need your approval”, and left with her new team :D

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@Badumsquish
That would be interesting || and might happen in episode 20 || , but I still hope she reconciles with Rainbow and and reenters the Wonderbolts.

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Reykan

Look, a distraction!

@Silver_lining
““Hey kid, you can’t skate here

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Badumsquish

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@genervt
I’m hoping she comes back as antagonistic, but not a bad person. Like a member of a benign but rival flying team or something. That’s really the one thing we’ve never seen: a “bad” character just change for the better all on their own because it was just in their nature. It’d be real satisfying because it would give her justice for being booted from the Wonderbolts without outright putting any real blame on Dash or Spitfire for it, y’know? :D

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@Badumsquish
I really hope she does not come back as a villain even when she has every right to be resentful.

Dusty deserves better.

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Badumsquish

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@Silver_lining
That she didn’t get that opportunity to change for the better right then and there in the form of a warning and a second chance is severely amoral and callous of Spitfire, especially considering it is Spitfire’s duty and job to train the recruits to be good Wonderbolts which she failed to do in Dust by encouraging her to do wrong. That Dust was callous about endangering people who were only in danger because they were entirely in the wrong in the first place really isn’t much of a strike against her moral code (that’s not even as bad as any of the Mane Six have been at their worst), and if she comes back as a genuine villain later, it will absolutely be the result of her being overly punished for an act that she was barely responsible for in the first place. Nice job breaking it Spitfire, you flamey-haired callous douche :/

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@Silver_lining
Risk of mortality is not “mildly endangering”. That’s like a driver describing almost hitting someone as “mildly endangering”. There’s nothing mild about mortal peril. And again, the real issue wasn’t even the tornado itself; that was an accident. An accident born of a series of misjudgments, but it wasn’t malicious per se. The issue was Lightning’s callousness; the other misjudgments were all born of good intentions (Spitfire wanting to encourage a seemingly promising cadet, Dashie’s friends wanting to see their friend, and Dashie herself trying to set ego aside and be a team player), but Lightning’s callousness was pure, uncaring hubris. There is nothing sympathetic about that.
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Lightning was tying to save her face and became stubborn when Rainbow yelled at her in front of the whole academy. If Rainbow had talked to her calmly and in private she would have been much more reasonable.

I agree with the rest.

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Silver_lining

@Reykan
Same here, like I have absolutely zero sympathy for Twi and her friends, like they were literally the Snips and Snails to Lightning Dust’s Trixie: doing an unbelievably stupid and boneheaded stunt which another character paid the price for while they got off scot-free for it. The absolute worst Lightning Dust did was not care that she was inadvertently and mildly endangering others which, while dickish, really isn’t any worse than Rainbow Dash herself was before she got character development (Not to mention that, while Rainbow Dash at least cared this was going on, she didn’t care enough to actually do something about it) :P

Risk of mortality is not “mildly endangering”. That’s like a driver describing almost hitting someone as “mildly endangering”. There’s nothing mild about mortal peril. And again, the real issue wasn’t even the tornado itself; that was an accident. An accident born of a series of misjudgments, but it wasn’t malicious per se. The issue was Lightning’s callousness; the other misjudgments were all born of good intentions (Spitfire wanting to encourage a seemingly promising cadet, Dashie’s friends wanting to see their friend, and Dashie herself trying to set ego aside and be a team player), but Lightning’s callousness was pure, uncaring hubris. There is nothing sympathetic about that.

Now if Lightning demonstrates that she’s learned her lesson next time we see her (and doesn’t go the predictable revenge route) and shows some real consideration for other ponies (and creatures, now that School Daze is adapting its own form of PC), I’m all for her reinstatement into the program. Maybe show Dashie’s friends feeling bad about Lightning’s expulsion, and even address the fact that if they hadn’t shown up when they did, Lightning may not have gotten kicked out. Dashie of course would be the most resistant, pointing out Lightning’s reckless behavior was going to get her in trouble eventually, and one of her friends (likely Twilight) can bring up that Spitfire could have done more to keep Lightning in line. As Dashie herself knows, even Spitfire isn’t perfect. Nopony (or creature) is.

Cue episode where Mane Six (and Glimmer) apologize to Lightning about contributing to her expulsion, attempt to help her get back in to the academy, point out to Spitfire where they all went wrong last time, and Lightning finally gets to be a Wonderbolt while learning to think about other ponies and maybe come to appreciate having real friends. Apologies are made, wounds are healed, we can all go home happy.

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Badumsquish

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@Reykan
Same here, like I have absolutely zero sympathy for Twi and her friends, like they were literally the Snips and Snails to Lightning Dust’s Trixie: doing an unbelievably stupid and boneheaded stunt which another character paid the price for while they got off scot-free for it. The absolute worst Lightning Dust did was not care that she was inadvertently and mildly endangering others which, while dickish, really isn’t any worse than Rainbow Dash herself was before she got character development (Not to mention that, while Rainbow Dash at least cared this was going on, she didn’t care enough to actually do something about it) :P

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Reykan

Look, a distraction!

@Badumsquish
It sorta reminds me of Trixie getting the bad rap for the bear attack while the kids that actually brought the bear were rewarded(don’t tell me giving a kid a moustache is a punishment, they think that would be awesome and the duo do). In this case you have a private training area where all individuals are considered the best of the best in terms of recruits, or are supposed to be. They’re allowed to go wild, in fact it’s encouraged in order for them to push themselves farther. No, I have no sympathy for Twilight and her friends. It would be like a senator or ambassador walking into a live-fire artillery training area and expecting his position to protect him. Would the army stop firing mortars? yes, they would. The moment they saw him, they’d call immediate cease-fire. Best case scenario they’d call it before he even reached the target area. Which is another issue. Nobody spotted the balloon as it entered a restricted Wonderbolts training zone? Are you telling me fans don’t try to get into star athletes training zones?

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Badumsquish

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@shitsandgiggles
Pretty much this. There’s also that it was absolutely morally wrong of Spitfire to give her such a harsh punishment without even giving her a chance to redeem herself (far far far far far far far far far far worse characters have been offered a second chance), and that it was absolutely morally wrong of Rainbow Dash to do absolutely nothing to address what she felt were dangerous acts for so long (which leaves me wondering if she even cared that the actions themselves were morally wrong, or only cared because _her friends were endangered), and that it was absolutely morally wrong to pull such a dangerous stunt as bumbling head-on into a live training area (nor did they even seem to care they cost a recruit her job or nearly got themselves or their rescuers injured or killed) yet Spitfire, the Mane Five, and Rainbow Dash got off scot-free, scot-free and were rewarded, respectively. Yes Lightning Dust did wrong, but no more wrong than any other featured character and certainly not nearly wrong enough to deserve to be written off as an irredeemable monster :/

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@Silver_lining
The whirlwind in Hurricane Fluttershy was deliberate and controlled, the pegasi knowing the risks involved. Lightning’s tornado was formed without Spitfire’s notice or communication to the other cadets. And while Spitfire is responsible for cultivating Lightning’s mentality, she also took responsibility once Lightning got out of hand. A simple warning would have been a slap on the hoof, and would have turned RD away from the ’Bolts since she was already put out by Spitfire’s leadership at that point, and given that RD had already proven her character several times up to that point, that would have been the bigger loss.
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It still was created within a restricted area. Lightning could not know that civilists were entering without permission during training.
There are other possibilities for a punishment than kick her out just like that.

And ultimately, before the tornado Lightning was reckless, yes, and Spitfire erroneously viewed that as simply being driven, but she didn’t expect Lightning to use something like the tornado, and she hadn’t expected Lightning to act so callous about it (she also called RD out for trying to leave without giving her a chance to respond, which is technically only fair). Ultimately Lightning betrayed her trust as well. Being a student doesn’t excuse Lightning’s behavior; she should know better, she’s a grown mare, not a school filly. And she’s a military cadet, not a public school student. Spitfire is her commanding officer, not her mother. If a soldier trainee is going to start setting off grenades without regard for other people’s safety, is that someone who should be serving as a protector? How far does Lightning get to go? What’s the line that has to be crossed to qualify for discharge? At what point is her frame of mind simply unacceptable for service? If a pony had actually gotten killed by that tornado, and Lightning was callous about that , would a slap on the hoof warning have felt like adequate punishment?
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Spitfire is not Lightnings mother, she is her Captain and should have corrected her behaviour early instead of encouraging her all the way and expell her as soon as something goes wrong. The least she could have done is to give her a second chance to do better. After all, Rainbow got second chances, too.

Spitfire didn’t know how far Lightning would go, and once she found out, she exercised her authority to remove the most dangerous element involved. Other people acting stupid does not give you a right to act callous, or to shirk responsibility for your actions.
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Spitfire could have made Lightning Rainbows wingpony so she could learn from her and have a positive influence. But that would have been the right thing to do so of course incompetent Spitfire just kicked her out.

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shitsandgiggles

@Silver_lining
No it doesn’t excuse it but it makes her way more redeemable than the ponies the princess of friendship could be bothered to redeem, this is more likely a case of Twilight selectively redeeming unicorns

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Silver_lining

@Silver_lining
I sort of agree with you there. I’m mostly against outright booting her out for it after Spitfire realized encouraging and praising her for doing dangerous things was wrong, never mind that it was really only “dangerous” because it endangered flightless people who were absolutely in the wrong place at the wrong time and the fliers who were actually supposed to be there risked being spun out at worst (kids get banged up worse than that playing ball in grade school and if pegasi weren’t normally able to handle being flung by a tornado they wouldn’t transport water like this). That was like deserving of a warning and an expectation to drop the callous attitude at most, y’know? Honestly, I think blaming and punishing someone for doing what you encouraged and rewarded them for doing is far more morally bankrupt than having a callous attitude toward nearly injuring some people who were only in danger because they very stupidly went into an inherently dangerous place, especially when one is the instructor who should absolutely know better and the other’s still just a student :/

The whirlwind in Hurricane Fluttershy was deliberate and controlled, the pegasi knowing the risks involved. Lightning’s tornado was formed without Spitfire’s notice or communication to the other cadets. And while Spitfire is responsible for cultivating Lightning’s mentality, she also took responsibility once Lightning got out of hand. A simple warning would have been a slap on the hoof, and would have turned RD away from the ‘Bolts since she was already put out by Spitfire’s leadership at that point, and given that RD had already proven her character several times up to that point, that would have been the bigger loss.

And ultimately, before the tornado Lightning was reckless, yes, and Spitfire erroneously viewed that as simply being driven, but she didn’t expect Lightning to use something like the tornado, and she hadn’t expected Lightning to act so callous about it (she also called RD out for trying to leave without giving her a chance to respond, which is technically only fair). Ultimately Lightning betrayed her trust as well. Being a student doesn’t excuse Lightning’s behavior; she should know better, she’s a grown mare, not a school filly. And she’s a military cadet, not a public school student. Spitfire is her commanding officer, not her mother. If a soldier trainee is going to start setting off grenades without regard for other people’s safety, is that someone who should be serving as a protector? How far does Lightning get to go? What’s the line that has to be crossed to qualify for discharge? At what point is her frame of mind simply unacceptable for service? If a pony had actually gotten killed by that tornado, and Lightning was callous about that , would a slap on the hoof warning have felt like adequate punishment?

Spitfire didn’t know how far Lightning would go, and once she found out, she exercised her authority to remove the most dangerous element involved. Other people acting stupid does not give you a right to act callous, or to shirk responsibility for your actions.

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Badumsquish

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@Silver_lining
I sort of agree with you there. I’m mostly against outright booting her out for it after Spitfire realized encouraging and praising her for doing dangerous things was wrong, never mind that it was really only “dangerous” because it endangered flightless people who were absolutely in the wrong place at the wrong time and the fliers who were actually supposed to be there risked being spun out at worst (kids get banged up worse than that playing ball in grade school and if pegasi weren’t normally able to handle being flung by a tornado they wouldn’t transport water like this). That was like deserving of a warning and an expectation to drop the callous attitude at most, y’know? Honestly, I think blaming and punishing someone for doing what you encouraged and rewarded them for doing is far more morally bankrupt than having a callous attitude toward nearly injuring some people who were only in danger because they very stupidly went into an inherently dangerous place, especially when one is the instructor who should absolutely know better and the other’s still just a student :/

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Silver_lining

@Silver_lining
If I was nearly shot or blown up after wandering into a military training zone during a live training exercise, I’d feel “holy SHIT that was dumb of me to go in there” and honestly just be thankful I was still alive. Thus I would NEVER do such an irresponsibly stupid thing, nor would I honestly expect the guy who fired the shot to be or feel even remotely responsible for it. To me that’s like blaming the Nascar driver because he nearly ran over a fan who ran out onto the track, or blaming the guy who hopped the junkyard fence and got mauled by the guard dog, y’know? Even if we assume they had permission to be there (which I doubt), all that does is shift the fault from them to the dumbass(es) who gave them permission and then didn’t bother to escort them, warn of their arrival, or make sure the training zone was safe beforehand :/

This isn’t just about blame, or more precisely who is at fault. This is about the attitudes of the parties involved and what it says about their character. Lightning didn’t care that other ponies almost “got smashed to pieces” because of a tornado she created. No matter who is at fault, the fact that she was so callous about potential casualties speaks ill of her person. It’s the same for the soldier or the NASCAR driver we’re using as examples; if they don’t care that someone almost got killed because of something they did, accident or no, it indicates a serious problem with who they are, regardless of who is at fault. I know I sure wouldn’t want to depend on a soldier who would just shrug if their grenade happened to blow me up by accident. And if I ever hurt or nearly hurt someone by accident, I’d feel terrible about it and do all I could to help them. It’s called being a decent person.

In short, it wouldn’t have killed Lightning to be genuinely remorseful about her actions and to put the safety of the endangered ponies before her own ego. That could have reduced her punishment from dishonorable discharge to a warning. Certainly I would see her in a better light for it, and I’d like to think a lot of my fellow bronies and pegasisters would too.

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Background Pony #F6CE

Let that be a lesson to you Lightning Dust. Doing what your instructor / employer / boss told you to do and praised you for doing will get you fired if it becomes an issue for the main character who was until then gleefully colluding with you and doing the same things :/

First of all, Rainbow was not gleefully colluding with her, and clearly had issues with what she was doing all along. That she acted based on respect for Spitfires judgement may have been misguided in this case, but it certainly shouldn’t be confused for total commitment. And as for the instructors, I do have less sympathy for Spitfire, but her praising Lightning Dust based on an incomplete understanding of what was going on does not mean she condoned her tactics or would have accepted that behavior otherwise.

@Badumsquish

@Silver_lining
If I was nearly shot or blown up after wandering into a military training zone during a live training exercise, I’d feel “holy SHIT that was dumb of me to go in there” and honestly just be thankful I was still alive. Thus I would NEVER do such an irresponsibly stupid thing, nor would I honestly expect the guy who fired the shot to be or feel even remotely responsible for it. To me that’s like blaming the Nascar driver because he nearly ran over a fan who ran out onto the track, or blaming the guy who hopped the junkyard fence and got mauled by the guard dog, y’know? Even if we assume they had permission to be there (which I doubt), all that does is shift the fault from them to the dumbass(es) who gave them permission and then didn’t bother to escort them, warn of their arrival, or make sure the training zone was safe beforehand :/

I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree. This wasn’t some highly dangerous live fire war zone simulation. It was cloud busting… an activity so mundane, Rainbow Dash’s first appearance on the show was accompanied by a statement about how it would barely take her any time to complete something like that. It should not have been a dangerous or complicated task… just a tedious one. An incredibly basic bit of upkeep with virtually no danger to anyone passing by as long as the individual doing it exercises the tiniest modicum of caution. And Lightning Dust’s approach was so insanely over the top that she managed to threaten the lives of her classmates and pretty much anyone in the vicinity. It’s like telling someone to rake leaves and having them decide to speed up the cleanup task by coating the top of the offending tree in flammable liquids and lighting the whole thing on fire. And I’m certainly not going to blame the people who got burned because they didn’t anticipate someone would napalm a forest rather than pick up a leaf blower.

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@Silver_lining
I think that Lightnings beviour is a mixture of not realizing how dangerous the tornado became and trying to safe her face. She did not seem to have seen the balloon or the fall and nopony bothered to tell her.

She felt bad later, even BEFORE she was kicked out.
full

full

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Badumsquish

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@Silver_lining
If I was nearly shot or blown up after wandering into a military training zone during a live training exercise, I’d feel “holy SHIT that was dumb of me to go in there” and honestly just be thankful I was still alive. Thus I would NEVER do such an irresponsibly stupid thing, nor would I honestly expect the guy who fired the shot to be or feel even remotely responsible for it. To me that’s like blaming the Nascar driver because he nearly ran over a fan who ran out onto the track, or blaming the guy who hopped the junkyard fence and got mauled by the guard dog, y’know? Even if we assume they had permission to be there (which I doubt), all that does is shift the fault from them to the dumbass(es) who gave them permission and then didn’t bother to escort them, warn of their arrival, or make sure the training zone was safe beforehand :/

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Silver_lining

@shitsandgiggles

@Silver_lining
Starlight, Trixie, Sunset and Fizzlepop Berrytwist did way worse

Doesn’t excuse Lightning’s callousness about the situation.

@Badumsquish

@shitsandgiggles
She doesn’t even need a redemption I don’t think, like @genervt said her actions were entirely circumstantial. Her wanting to push herself and “be the best” was only wrong due to very specific occurrences and some honest wrongdoing by Spitfire (Allowed and encouraged it), Rainbow Dash (Went along with it), and Dash’s friends (Don’t enter a military training zone during a live exercise). She just needs a better environment :D

If a soldier nearly shot you or blew you up during a training exercise, especially with non-standard weapons and tactics, even if by accident, regardless of the legality of your presence there, and then shrugged it off, how would you feel? No matter the circumstances, a soldier charged as a protector should be expected to value innocent lives, particularly those of the people they are charged to protect. The whole tornado mess is the equivalent of clearing rubble or demolishing a building using military-grade weaponry, then shrugging when non-authorized personnel close to the blast zone nearly get killed.

I won’t deny the faults of the other characters in the situation (save for RD whose fault here is “trying to follow orders”, with reluctance no less), but wanting to push yourself and “be the best” doesn’t excuse blatant disregard for civilian life. Let’s say Lightning destroyed a family’s house using her tornado method; would she just shrug it off like she did for RD’s friends? Or how about if some ponies under her watch were in trouble, even if due to their own stupidity or recklessness? Does a charged protector have the right to just shrug it off then? How long before Lightning endangered her own comrades with the same callousness? Granted, Lightning’s personality flaws obviously go back before Spitfire’s negligent leadership. I suspect Lightning’s parents screwed up there, perhaps by setting a bad example for their daughter.

And I don’t think Rainbow Dash carries a lot of fault here; she opposed Lightning being the lead (even if it was out of pride moreso than concern for safety, this is RD we’re talking about after all) and was told by Spitfire that Lightning was better suited for the lead position, essentially being told to follow Lightning’s lead. RD was trying to follow orders, the tornado was ultimately Lightning’s call given the team arrangement (had RD protested, she would have been accused of opposing Lightning out of ego thanks to her talk with Spitfire), and when Lightning callously dismissed the danger to her friends, RD’s indignation was justified, and served as a lesson in responsibility.

The reason Lightning got kicked from the Bolts isn’t because of the tornado mess itself but the blatant disregard she showed for potential casualties after the fact. Lightning should have shown stern concern for RD’s friends and verbally reprimanded them for endangering themselves, showing repect for rules and an underlying desire to keep them safe. Had Lightning showed concern for RD’s friends, RD and Spitfire might have been more sympathetic to her and she might have been allowed to stay on the force, albeit incurring disciplinary action.

In short: Spitfire was an irresponsible leader who should have established boundaries for Lightning in the first place and who should have immediately opposed the tornado idea when RD brought it up to her, RD’s friends should have cleared their arrival with Spitfire first to ensure there were no incidents or false alarms (say, in the event they happened to be spies from an enemy nation), and Lightning was inexcusably callous about the danger her actions posed towards civilians.

This all said, I do feel a twinge of sympathy for Lightning here, and if they could have her show genuine concern for others in her next appearance, I would accept her joining RD on the Bolts.

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genervt

DUSTY IS BEST CAPTAIN

@genervt
She got her warnings from RD and other students. That said, it is a school. Ppl is there to learn. It was wrong to kick her out in the first place. But me about that… :)

The problem is that she never got a warning (except maybe a more than half-hearted attempt from Rainbow) but a lot of encouragement and approval from Spitfire until the situation escalated.

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@shitsandgiggles
She doesn’t even need a redemption I don’t think, like @genervt said her actions were entirely circumstantial. Her wanting to push herself and “be the best” was only wrong due to very specific occurrences and some honest wrongdoing by Spitfire (Allowed and encouraged it), Rainbow Dash (Went along with it), and Dash’s friends (Don’t enter a military training zone during a live exercise). She just needs a better environment :D

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shitsandgiggles

@Silver_lining
Starlight, Trixie, Sunset and Fizzlepop Berrytwist did way worse

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