Harshie83

Live from the hive

I should probably rephrase that comment lol.

They might look at being turned to stone as a regular, severe punishment.

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Background Pony #CB3F

@A Gruntman
This is true, they never got the same chance others got so we cannot know if their irrideemable. Hypocrasy at it’s finest.

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Harshie83

Live from the hive

It’s a different world. They might look at being stoned as just another, albeit severe, punishment.

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A Gruntman

OverzealousFluttershyFan

@SSJGPiccles
Almost makes you think given that there’s not a single pony in Tartarus. So where do you suppose the criminals are sent if there doesn’t seem to be any prisons in Equestria?

Something tells me those statues in the Canterlot Gardens aren’t just for show.
>>8236

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SunlightDrifter

@A Gruntman
The Equestria justice system always kind of baffled me really.

Then’s such a large gap in between sentences.

If you feel at least a little bad about what you did, you can get off pretty Scott free with just about anything. Otherwise, it’s usually some fate worse than death.

I know it’s a cartoon, but dang. Heck of a disparity.

Regular prison just doesn’t exist in Equestria it seems.

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SunlightDrifter

@Derpy Whooves
I have? Fine then. It’s not really worth getting banned over, or whatever they do around here.

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A Gruntman

OverzealousFluttershyFan

May as well put in my 2 bits in this. Don’t think I’ll bother arguing about it seeing as some people feel a strong will to defend bad writing lest we speak badly about the “brilliant” series finale that is The Ending of the End.

For starters why do our “heroes” feel the need to immediately imprison three villains (one of which is a powerless defenseless child) in stone while they’re already defeated and at their weakest state? No fair trial or questioning. Just immediate death sentence. “Together forever” as Discord quoted. Oh that’s right. He was the asshole who orchestrated this series of events. Yes let’s let him decide their fate.

Second Chrysalis, Cozy, Tirek, and Sombra were doing fine on their own isolated from society and being dead until Discord roped them together and essentially baited them into doing evil just to be used as tools in his master plan to give Twilight confidence. This is called entrapment. What Discord did was the equivalent of an undercover cop selling drugs to crackheads and arresting them after they’ve done so.

And lastly is mostly an argument for those who say Cozy is an irredeemable villain. How can you really claim she is irredeemable when we know nothing of her backstory and the reason she is the way she is? What if Twilight hadn’t managed to get Starlight to confess why she does the things she does and had been able to defeat her. I have no doubt in my mind the princesses wouldn’t have hesitated to sentence her to Tartarus given the chance.

Either way you slice it, you can’t justify that this was the most deserving punishment given to our three villains. Unless you have strong feelings for the series finale and feel the need to come up with reasons to enjoy it.

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Derpy Whooves

Looking For My Doctor

@SSJGPiccles
It matters because you’ve broken Rule #0 three times in the last 24 hours and it would be really good if you would calm down and … if this is fun for you … try to do it in a way that can be fun for others, too. So please keep your comments civil.

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SunlightDrifter

@Derpy Whooves
Does it really matter if I do?

Maybe this is what I find fun. I’m not hurting anyone.

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Derpy Whooves

Looking For My Doctor

@SSJGPiccles
Now that you’ve had the last word, do you think maybe you could drop it and move on, please?

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SunlightDrifter

@Alphamon_Ouryuken

There was nothing stopping them from Simply crying out “we surrender”!

That’s plainly beside the point, isn’t it? They’re not as hard on this “die on the hill no matter the cost” as Chrysalis is.

They did with cozy glow. And no, her faking it doesn’t nullify the fact that they made genuine efforts to be nice to her.

That’s called common decency. Are you not nice to people you interact with on average?

It doesn’t mean you’re reforming them or anything, nor is it at all significant to either of you.

Excuse you?

“Learn to be fair”?

You just said that they “still had no reason to like the ponies who threw them away all the while.”

Last I checked, they went out of their way to make the ponies lives miserable. So exactly what right do they have to be angry when they get thrown away? Sounds like you’re the one who needs to learn to be fair.

Then throw away Discord and throw away Starlight. Sunset and Tempest too. Anyone who’s ever messed up and gotten a second chance.

That’s fair, isn’t it?

It’s not about what’s deserved. It’s about what’s fair. You don’t give out second chances and friendships to some people and not others. And you don’t judge people by different standards. That’s not fair.

Considering the fact that she made it clear that she didn’t WANT to be properly known, she dug her own grave there. Besides, she’s the one who entered the school of friendship just for the exact opposite reasons.

What villain does? Someone who doesn’t understand the point of reaching out to someone and reforming them, really shouldn’t be making calls on who does or doesn’t deserve it.

Did he honestly expect no repercussions for his own actions?

Well, obviously he expected to get everything he wanted, so no. He didn’t.

What I wanted to know is why you expect all that time rotting away to make him do anything but hate? Cozy too. They’re just going to get worse and you’ll have no one but yourself to blame when you have a monster on your hands you can’t handle.

I’d say it’s more on you considering the fact that they were willing to accept Scorpan, they might have accepted Tirek if he actually put in the effort. But he was more content with draining their livelihood and enslaving them.

Given his personality and attitude and lust for power? It’s obvious that he didn’t.

Maybe they would have. Scorpan should have led with that, or tried to get them to show leniency to Tirek in exchange for his capture.

He didn’t do either. No one did.

They did so very little. It’s pretty plain to see.

You want to be merciless, then that’s fine. Just treat people like Discord with the same lack of empathy then. He’s every bit the monster Tirek is. Probably more.

Funny you talk about learning empathy despite the villains you’re standing up for showcasing none.

Just because they have no empathy means that you should be just as bad?

You should really stop sticking up for Discord then. Even now he’s not good with empathy.

He and Tempest never would have changed if someone didn’t show them compassion first.

Frenemies proves that you can reach them. Stop acting like it doesn’t exist. All you have to do is try.

Considering the fact that they still have the elements and yet one of them genuinely agreed to not use them against him. He had basically got in free rein and yet was able to real himself in. So, Yeah.

Hardly.

Tirek himself pointed it out. Fluttershy’s friendship was just a different prison. He wanted it and he’d lose it if he acted up.

Discord never really learned to care about more than what he wanted until his own selfishness cost him everything. People don’t change overnight and it takes plenty of time and effort. Lots of times it won’t happen until someone reaches out to help them.

Cozy and Tirek had none of those things and certainly not in the massive volume Discord had them. They had people actively encouraging them not to change.

Irredeemable villains are people that can’t be reached no matter how hard you try. Not people that you never try to reach.

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Alphamon_Ouryuken

Lord of the Empty Seat

@Derpy Whooves
Fine, I’ve made point and I’m pretty much done here. Plus the way you summed up Cozy Glow as an irredeemable villain was perfect.

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Derpy Whooves

Looking For My Doctor

@Alphamon_Ouryuken
Image comment threads aren’t support forums - if you think this should be taken down, please report it. Personally, setting aside some of the comments here, I don’t think the image itself breaks any of our rules.

My take on it is that, for some people, Cozy Glow is a horrific unrepentant force of evil who tried to destroy all life on Equestria, twice, maybe three times, simply because she figured out how to do so or was offered the opportunity, and never once considered the pain or harm she was causing. In fact she often cackled with glee about how much she was hurting others. So in the end she was irredeemable and so the ponies did what they do when something can’t be redeemed and keeps using every opportunity they get to cause pain for others - they seal it away in stone or a glacier or on the moon for future generations to deal with. #CelestiaSolutionsAlwaysFail.

For others, Cozy Glow is the perfect paragon of a helpless child who only tried to kill or subjugate everyone on the planet (twice, maybe three times) because she was offered an opportunity and only did what everyone else would do in the same circumstances without any regard for the pain or harm being caused, cackling with glee while others begged for their lives. For them, this appears to be perfectly normal behavior that anyone would exhibit given the same opportunity. Sounds a little bit like Frodo hoping that Smoegal can be redeemed, because if he can, then maybe Frodo can be redeemed too, but I’m not sure who’s projecting what at this point.

And, honestly, I really don’t think those two groups of people will ever see eye-to-eye. Ever.

So, while I think it’s ridiculous that y’all are still fighting about this to the point that we have to come in and remind a couple people to stop being shits to others, I don’t care.

As far as I’m concerned, and I think as far as the rest of the site is concerned, y’all have created your own personal Tartarus here. A containment zone, if you will, for people who can’t let go and have to keep picking at this particular scab.

If you wish, have fun pushing this particular rock endlessly up this particular hill. If you don’t wish to do so, do something else. Unsubscribe from the image and have fun. Because if you’re not having fun, then it’s just not any fun.

Just, whatever you do, please do it with a becoming grace. Or, if that’s impossible, at least keep it civil.

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Alphamon_Ouryuken

Lord of the Empty Seat

@Derpy Whooves
Maybe this image should be deleted, it’s just Spam from 4chan after all.

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Alphamon_Ouryuken

Lord of the Empty Seat

@Background Pony #A139
Being in a school with plenty of a reason since she had plenty of chances to have an extra push, the problem is she pushed back and didn’t care enough to learn genuinely.

When it comes to being robbed of your own livelihood in the way you function in life? She didn’t exactly have any other options at the time. Plus she got a second chance because she at the very least tried to save Twilight and her friends.

Once again, the key word is empathy. And those three didn’t have any.

Twilight reached out to her by asking her why she would betray them after all they did for her. Cozy was given a chance to end the very least try to atone for her actions, but she didn’t, instead she threw it back in her face and tried to flee while proclaiming she do the same thing elsewhere.

They got their chance, they wasted it.

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Background Pony #CB3F

@Alphamon_Ouryuken
Yes, she does deserve a second chance. Simplay being in a school does not deter from that. She just needed an extra push is all.

And no, being crippled does not give you the right to be that selfish. If she deserved a second chance so did the trio.

Who tried reaching out to Cozy after she was defeated? No one. A second chance implies having to do something bad at first, which every other reformed villain did beforehand. Cozy was given nothing and was simply tossed into Tartarus without a second thought. She deserved better especially since she’s also a child. Discord also had a lot of time to mule over weather or not his actions were justified, but it went nowhere.

They did not get their chance and they deserved better.

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Derpy Whooves

Looking For My Doctor

Please keep this discussion civil. If you can’t do that, please unsubscribe and take a break from the site.

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Alphamon_Ouryuken

Lord of the Empty Seat

@SSJGPiccles

Chrysalis claimed that. Tirek and Cozy looked scared, right up until they got stoned.

It would have been a perfect time to reach out to them.

There was nothing stopping them from Simply crying out “we surrender”!

Unfortunately, Twilight and her friends never appealed to it.

They did with cozy glow. And no, her faking it doesn’t nullify the fact that they made genuine efforts to be nice to her.

They were straight-up talked out of it and still had no reason to like the ponies who threw them away all the while.

Learn to be fair, and stop acting like that was a fair shot.

Excuse you?

“Learn to be fair”?

You just said that they “still had no reason to like the ponies who threw them away all the while.”

Last I checked, they went out of their way to make the ponies lives miserable. So exactly what right do they have to be angry when they get thrown away? Sounds like you’re the one who needs to learn to be fair.

And so she didn’t learn anything. Once that’s clear it’s time to correct that and get to actually know Cozy. Or toss the child into hell and forget about it. That’s something a school of FRIENDSHIP should be doing, right?

Considering the fact that she made it clear that she didn’t WANT to be properly known, she dug her own grave there. Besides, she’s the one who entered the school of friendship just for the exact opposite reasons.

And Scorpan just let it happen after helping him get caught. And you honestly expect Tirek to learn anything other than hate through this?

Did he honestly expect no repercussions for his own actions?

How do you know he did? Nothing ever says that, so the burden of proof is on you.

I’d say it’s more on you considering the fact that they were willing to accept Scorpan, they might have accepted Tirek if he actually put in the effort. But he was more content with draining their livelihood and enslaving them.

Given his personality and attitude and lust for power? It’s obvious that he didn’t.

I suggest you learn a little empathy and how to more properly read a situation.

Funny you talk about learning empathy despite the villains you’re standing up for showcasing none.

“Same chances?” That’s an honest laugh.

Considering the fact that they still have the elements and yet one of them genuinely agreed to not use them against him. He had basically got in free rein and yet was able to real himself in. So, Yeah.

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SunlightDrifter

@Alphamon_Ouryuken

No it doesn’t, because he got the same chance, when he was brought back. He had a chance to see what it was like to actually genuinely befriend someone. The trio have that in the sense that they befriended each other, but dismissed it outright.

Congratulations, your argument is dead in the water.

No, he got a reformation program that went out of its way to change his unrepentant ways, an incredibly nice pegasus who was willing to be his friend despite his lack of empathy, a princess who forgave him for betraying them and gave him mercy with no real reason to, and a supportive network of ponies and other creatures who regularly put up with his shit, even if it sometimes almost gets them killed.

Tirek and Cozy got abducted by Discord for an evil plan, paired with a changeling Queen who is bitter and stubborn to her core, and had doomsday weapons dangled in front of them like candy. All with no one willing to be their friend or even care about them.

“Same chances?” That’s an honest laugh.

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SunlightDrifter

Deletion reason: Rule #0

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Alphamon_Ouryuken

Lord of the Empty Seat

@SSJGPiccles

And those different circumstances are that they put a lot of effort into reforming Discord. That’s it.

No, the circumstances are the fact that he showed empathy while the other villains who claimed that they simply keep coming back. Even when they were given their own chance to change.

Their reformation doesn’t exist. None of the things you’re citing as their second chance actually involved the ponies being aware of what was going on or an honest effort to reform them.

Straight made an honest effort with Chrysalis, and she smacked her away. The ponies tooken cozy glow and trying to teach her the proper ways of friendship but she simply used them

Discord made it clear he didn’t want to change. Why did they still try hard to change him then?

Fluttershy was able to appeal to his better side. The evil trio didn’t seem to have one.

No, you keep interpreting scraps as chances. Cozy and Tirek clearly show that friendship CAN change them,

And yet they denied it and proved they didn’t want to change.

If I go into a school all about Spanish with no intention of learning Spanish, then I’m not going to learn any Spanish even if it’s written on the fliers.

That comparison is beyond stupid, we’re not talking about learning a language.

You’re not going to learn something without the proper desire to learn and good instruction based on what kind of person you are.

She wanted to learn for the wrong reasons, and purposely took the wrong lessons just so she could pull up her own evil scheme.

If Scorpan cared you’d think he’d at least bargain to get Tirek a punishment that WASN’T Tarturs for all eternity after betraying him. It’s no wonder Tirek hates them all and he has no reason not to.

He was going to rob them of their livelihood for his own selfish goals of Conquest. It’s no wonder that day or so strict with their punishment.

If they want Tirek to change, then be his friend. It’s that simple. Don’t talk about your friends.

And how do you know if Scorpan didn’t try to convince him to actually speak and interact with the ponies instead of trying to enslave them? Oh wait, we do. It was stated in his backstory that he actually did try to convince tirek to come around but he outright told him to piss off.

Pointing out bad and hypocritical writing isn’t whining. Sorry if you think it is.

The fact that you can’t see the clear differences between an honest reformation attempt and circumstantial second thoughts in a horrible situation is sad.

Can’t be hypocritical of the offending party makes it very clear that they don’t have any intention of stopping their evil ways and just want to bring ruination to the ponies land. At list the one that God reformed actually put in some effort from their own end.

I suggest you tone down your condescending tone and get it through your thick skull. They weren’t going to change, they didn’t want to change, and they proved that they were perfectly happy staying evil and paid the price for it.

You do realize that if Discord got the same “chances” Cozy, Tirek, and even Chrysalis got, he’d still be evil. Right?

That kills your argument right there.

No it doesn’t, because he got the same chance, when he was brought back. He had a chance to see what it was like to actually genuinely befriend someone. The trio have that in the sense that they befriended each other, but dismissed it outright.

Congratulations, your argument is dead in the water.

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SunlightDrifter

@Alphamon_Ouryuken
You do realize that if Discord got the same “chances” Cozy, Tirek, and even Chrysalis got, he’d still be evil. Right?

That kills your argument right there.

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SunlightDrifter

@Alphamon_Ouryuken

I can because those are different circumstances.

And those different circumstances are that they put a lot of effort into reforming Discord. That’s it.

Not every reformation is exactly the same, the trio made it clear that they didn’t want to change.

Their reformation doesn’t exist. None of the things you’re citing as their second chance actually involved the ponies being aware of what was going on or an honest effort to reform them.

Discord made it clear he didn’t want to change. Why did they still try hard to change him then?

After they made it clear that they would never change? And as I said before, they were given their chances. And they swatted them away.

No, you keep interpreting scraps as chances. Cozy and Tirek clearly show that friendship CAN change them, so giving up on them makes absolutely no sense when even a modicum of effort could bring them around.

Isn’t that why Discord deserves infinite chances? Because he showed signs he could change. Well, they did too.

It counts because the main reason she was there was to study friendship. It doesn’t matter if he was faking it, if she’s going to just use them as a means to an end, why should they give her the benefit of the doubt?

If I go into a school all about Spanish with no intention of learning Spanish, then I’m not going to learn any Spanish even if it’s written on the fliers.

You’re not going to learn something without the proper desire to learn and good instruction based on what kind of person you are.

Cozy didn’t get that and to top it off it’s still not an attempt to reform her because point-blank they didn’t know she was evil or misunderstood friendship at the time.

They managed to give his brother a better outlook on life, he’s the one who decided to reject it entirely, that’s his fault, not theirs.

Reject what? Scorpan is the only one who talked to him, and it still has nothing at all to do with Tirek. How often do you give up your dreams because something unrelated happened to your brother?

Not to mention the severe punishment that followed ensuring he’d never change. If Scorpan cared you’d think he’d at least bargain to get Tirek a punishment that WASN’T Tarturs for all eternity after betraying him. It’s no wonder Tirek hates them all and he has no reason not to.

If they want Tirek to change, then be his friend. It’s that simple. Don’t talk about your friends.

It’s fair because at the end the circumstances allow him to see the benefits of friendship properly, the villains Neil had those circumstances but rejected them anyway.

They had their chance and they blew it, deal with it and stop whining.

Pointing out bad and hypocritical writing isn’t whining. Sorry if you think it is.

The fact that you can’t see the clear differences between an honest reformation attempt and circumstantial second thoughts in a horrible situation is sad.

Would you honestly expect Discord to be good when he had no Fluttershy and just other villains convincing him to be evil?
He’d have failed miserably.

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Alphamon_Ouryuken

Lord of the Empty Seat

@Harshie83

She tried to murder Thorax, who is heavily implied to be one of her many children just because he disagreed with her actions. So it’s doubtful.

@Background Pony #A139

Cody went to a school specifically for friendship. If she couldn’t learn enough from that then she didn’t deserve a second chance after trying to use everyone for her own selfish needs.

Tempest is a different case because she was basically crippled and desperate for a way to heal herself.

They got a second chance when the pony’s actually did reach out to them. They accepted Cozy into the school and Starlight attempted to reason with Chrysalis. Tirek had plenty of time to mull over whether or not his actions were Justified or not in Tartarus. And yet he still have the audacity to pretend that he deserves Revenge.

They got their chance. And they wasted it. End of Story.

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Background Pony #CB3F

@Alphamon_Ouryuken

@SSJGPiccles
Pretty much this. None of the three were given a reformation program the same way Discord was and the only reason Discord got as far as he did was because he got that program. Cozy’s time at school was not a second chance, Starlight didn’t learn anything by watching Twilight interact with her friends.

And no, it did not prove my point about Tempest. She was willing to make others suffer just for her own gain and yet, she proved that she could change given the right circomstances and some help from Twilight, something the others did not get.

Those three NEVER got the second chance they deserved.

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