@Background Pony #0566  

 
my guy, you can’t jump to “why are you making such a big deal out of this?” in the same reply with half a page of lolbertarian kool-aid because a comment made a point you didn’t like
 
Regardless, overhead costs like maintenance and such account for a significantly smaller sum of money than bosses usually encourage people to believe (though specific general data is hard to come by and each firm is different). Even accounting for that, the vast majority of what the workers (including managers, ofc, they’re still doing labour) have produced ends up in the hands of bosses and shareholders, and what gets taken in taxes at the end of the day is pitiful by comparison. The only reason people are upset over taxes is that you can see the exact sum in your paycheque. The same can’t be said for exploited labour value.
 
To be entirely clear, I’m not a big fan of taxes either, but I can tolerate their existence because we, as taxpaying citizens who can vote, get at least some say in how heavy they are or where they go. The same can’t be said for privately owned and oligarchically managed businesses, which we are just as (if not more) dependent on for our livelihood as the state.

@Moonatik  
First of all, 30% of your taxes is A LOT. If you make $30,000 a year then that’s almost $10,000 that you won’t be able to spend on anything else. You are objectively poorer as a result. The fact that so much is sucked out of citizens’ wallets yet the government is grossly indebted shows that something is clearly wrong with the big-government model.  
Secondly, you are making the claim that workers are producing X amount and the only reason they aren’t getting X amount is because Y amount is “stolen” from them. That is disingenuous mathematics. A lot more goes into production than mere labor. The reason American workers are so productive is not necessarily because they’re inherently smarter (Chinese rank higher in IQ yet aren’t as productive) but because of investment in capital and management. An ordinary worker does not have to worry about that: he puts in his allotted time, gets a paycheck back and can spend it as he wishes; it’s a simple trade of time (and talent) for money. The employer on the other hand has a lot more on his plate. He has to build/buy/rent the place of work, purchase the machinery needed to get the work done, hire and manage the right workers for the task, develop a long-term strategy, and market his product or service to the public. All this is done without any guarantee of success if he’s the owner. Moreover, profit to be earned is postponed toward the future (it takes some time from when iron is mined to when a finished car is sold) and because people prefer to have money now they have to have a return that matches competing possibilities. As a result firms that traverse this complicated landscape do better. It’s why it makes no sense for workers to “earn as much as they produce” because they don’t actually have a 100% stake in production unless if they take on all that delay and uncertainty.
 
 
@xRei  

 
Well, for the first part you’re just doing what you’re complaining about. Who is being smug here?
 
And yes, that is a strawman because you made no effort to present an opposing viewpoint fairly. I don’t care if you disagree, if I was attacking the Marxist way of thought I would be actually referencing their books and philosophers. To do otherwise is a very boomer attitude.
 
And that way of thought, “If X can be privatized, then why not Y?” is precisely how anarchism was derived in the mid-20th century from what was then classical liberalism. You are making the claim that it’s “not reasonable” but you merely assume that some goods and services are fundamentally different from others. It’s the “public goods” myth. Not all libertarians necessarily agree and most tend to be minarchist, but your implication that the anarchists are scatter-brained is insulting. Either actually do your research or simply say you disagree with libertarian thought, but “debunking” a strawman is cringeworthy.
 
Of course, the question ought to be asked is: why are you making such a fuss over an ancap picture and downvoting it? If you don’t like it then ignore it: that’s the policy for this site.

@xRei  
Perhaps. I’ve dealt with the absolute worst of the worst in my time, and it’s undoubtedly stressful. But giving up on everything I believe is the worst thing I can do.

@Moonatik  
I usually do try approach 1 first.
 
Usually.
 
But I’m probably a much more jaded person than you.

@xRei  
After talking to someone for a while it’s not hard to identify whether they’re speaking in good faith or not. If they aren’t, I’d pull out “roads lmao” without hesitation, but it’s always best to discuss stuff in good faith at first as that could set the tone for the rest of the conversation.

@Moonatik  
Many libertarians (and others) will just try to make a principled argument to this. For many, it has nothing to do with how much or to what extend taxes exist, but rather that they exist at all.
 
In their mind, it’s like you’re saying, “But the government only steals a relatively small percentage of your money so its not that big a deal.” To which you might say, “The capitalists take more (of the value you create),” and they can simply assert that you exchanged your labor to corporations in a ‘mutually beneficial and contractually negotiated arrangement between two independent and free parties’. Technically, you agreed to a contract, you weren’t forced, so its not like taxation where there is no choice.
 
Or they might try to throw some nonsense about how profit margins are super tiny and that labor makes up the vast majority of expenses (which is true to some extent), and how the company also needs capital to expand and run operations, etc. There are reasonable counters to all these things of course, but now you have to run around and find all the answers. Meanwhile, they sit back and smugly laugh because they managed to push the burden of proof onto you, despite the fact they are making the original claim. C’est la vie?
 
Of course, these sorts of libertarian arguments are superficial and specious for the most part. Though I have no doubt some libertarians out there would claim I’m making a straw man of their position. Shrug
 
The easier route to frying their brains is to ask–if they are truly making a purely principled argument–why its okay to demand taxes for things like the military, police, fire (and maybe) education, etc, but not other things… If they are a true to their word anarcho-libertarian, they will actually stick to the principle and claim those things should also be privately owned/paid. If they are more reasonable, they will probably claim that the government should only be involved insofar that they arbitrate disputes and enforce contracts, and possibly form a military.
 
But of course, why are those things arbitrarily okay to tax for? Why can I not opt out of those things too? I’d still be ‘forced’ to pay those taxes. Ultimately, they have no (rational) choice but to make a more nuanced claim that is based on more than just principal. From there it’s just a negotiation of what is and isn’t ‘necessary’ taxation. And only at that point will you possibly have a real and meaningful conversation.
 
But if you just want to troll them, ask how roads will be constructed without taxes or incentives to build them.

On average, Americans produce $70.78 per hour worked but only earn $28.81 per hour.
 
The average single American contributed just 29.6% of his earnings to three taxes in 2018: Income taxes, Medicare, and Social Security.
 
Stop blaming taxes. The vast majority of the value produced by your labour goes to capitalists, not the government.

WHen it is too high that is.

@cdcdrr  
this was a special commission

@Lux Arume  
Nah, it’s okay to be completely wrong. We put up with teenagers to.

huh i expected getting way more hate for this post

This immediately reminded me of r/politicalcompassmemes

War is peace.  
Freedom is slavery.  
Ignorance is strength.  
Theft is philanthropy.

You’ve convinced me. It is essential that we allow some measure of theft in our society to keep it functioning.

profit is theft :)

o no!