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GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Starswirl  
Fair enough. The whole reason they’ve never had any military developments in the last 1000 years is overreliance on magic and Celestia. I still stand by that humans are better in warfare due to the fact our hands simply give us more options in making and using weapons. But I too don’t want to drag out this discussion.
Starswirl
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@GeneralKenobi75  
We’re mostly in agreement. They would have other means, other weapons, other tactics, but they’re not shown to be used and it’s all but stated this is because they’re not. I also don’t think letting this discussion devolve into a pissing match of human-v-pony is all that productive. The real issue is that the ponies are being weirdly dumb in the context of their own setting.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Starswirl  
None of which they ever exploit. And even threats that aren’t on the level of say Nightmare Moon or Tirek the pony soldiers fare poorly. The Changelings overwhelmed them easily during the attack on Canterlot. In the Crystal War timeline Sombra was able to challenge them with just an army of random ponies he enslaved with mind control. In that it took everything the Equestrian army had just to hold their own against Sombra.
 
Again, still not immune to arrows. And the fact the ponies show no other tactics than just a straight charge in battle means they’re easy targets for regiments of archers or muskets. And if we want to look at Agincourt again, if the human armies set up rows of stakes the Earth Ponies won’t be able to reach them. They’ll just impale themselves on those stakes and be sitting ducks for arrows or pikes.
 
Also, the pony soldiers rarely use any weapons other than spears. Whereas human armies use a wide range of combined arms such as pikes, swords, axes, halberds, bows and so forth. We’re simply more versatile. Having opposable thumbs gives one a huge advantage.
Starswirl
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@GeneralKenobi75  
Honestly, it’s more that they’re a peaceful people and the few threats pony soldiers are shown to fight are immune to common soldiers in the first place. Because ponies would have effective weapons, they have crossbows, they have magical arrows that freeze the area of impact, they can be made into tight-armored calavry (the knightly steeds at Agincourt generally didn’t have any armor except for the head), and they’re more durable and can fight longer if earth pony magic indeed works like that. Hay, if alternate timelines are an indication, they have functioning cybernetics if they actually bothered.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Background Pony #7AD3  
You mean weapons they never use? Seriously, the ponies in the series never show any real military technology in their armies. Despite things like airships being around. Humans would exploit the hell out of those. In terms of warfare, we’ve advanced quicker than the ponies have in over a 1000 years.
 
With A arrow. I’m talking about a hail of arrows all being fired in unison. You know, how archers normally fight? Again, for example, look at Agincourt. A mass of cavalry is an easy target for a squad of archers. Especially those commanding the high ground. Arrows still kill horses. And again, a pike formation is still a powerful deterrent against cavalry charges. A regiment of ponies that’s crazy enough to charge a pike formation or phalanx of spears may kill some of the guys in front. But then they’d run into the next rank, and the next, and the next. Overlapping ranks of polearms is why cavalry did not tend to charge directly into massed ranks of infantry.
 
No, it really wasn’t. Especially later on. It’s the whole reason armor went out of fashion. Because musketfire could penetrate it. By the 15th Century ranks of musket wielding infantry could easily bring down fully armored knights. Also, for the ponies to truly exploit their speed, they would have to leave armor out in certain places so they could move. Massed musket fire could easily kill a group of charging ponies, armored or not.
 
Humans would actually be more versatile than any pony army. Because we can use a wider variety of weapons. Polearms, swords, axes, firearms, etc. We have a greater advantage over the ponies in that area. Charging a regiment of human troops with combined arms would be suicide for the ponies. First they’d be hit by a hail of either arrows or musketfire depending on which era you want to put them in. Then any survivors would have to contend with a shieldwall or pike formation. This is especially devastating if the humans command the battlefield and have time to set up beforehand. Such as placing stakes in the ground in front of them. Or worse, if they command say a section of hills. I don’t care how much momentum you have in your charge, you are not getting up those hills.
 
How are the ponies going to effectively load those cannons? Unless they have unicorns, cannons are going to be a bitch for a pony or any species without hands to use.
 
And that’s even assuming ponies would even use cannons. None of the pony military forces we’ve seen in the show have used cannons.
 
A human in close quarters would still have an advantage in they are wielding a sword against an Earth Pony. A skilled swordsman could easily cut the ponies hooves out from underneath them. Or dodge out of the way and cut off the charging ponies’s head. Remember, ponies and other equines really only have the advantage in speed over longer distances. Where they can build up speed and momentum. Shorter distances a pony is more clumsy than a human with their four legs. Even a FIM pony would be outmanuvered by a trained human, who’d keep the pony out bay with slashes to the legs and face. You’re expecting a human to go into battle unarmed against a pony. They’ll have weapons and know how to use them. And ponies are not invincible to cuts are you’re making them out to be. A cut to the legs with quickly disable one. Slash the tendons and they’re done. And if you cut off their hoof entirely, they’re definitely down. And unlike a human, ponies have a lot more legs to target.
 
How would a pegasi throw their spears down onto their opponents? Also, shields would take care of any attacks from the air. And then the use of skilled archers to bring down the pegasi.
 
Really the only advantage ponies have is their magic. And if we give the humans 21st Century technology in this encounter, suddenly magic becomes a lot less of an advantage.
 
And no, the Earth Ponies would be at a serious disadvantage in infantry combat. Again, massed pike formations supported by ranged units would devastate any pony cavalry charge. Again, look at Agincourt. The French knights and their warhorses were wearing heavy armor for the time, and they were slaughtered by the English longbowmen. If the Earth Ponies are charging in formation, that makes them easier targets and a hail of arrows is going to find gaps in their armor and then once they hit the pike formations they will impale themselves on the ranks of pikes. If they are unable to outflank the human regiments, or if the humans have time to set up walls of stakes or like a wagon fort they can easily fight off constant attacks from the ponies.
 
A phalanx is not the kind of formation used in a charge. Phalanxes advance slow a steady, since they need to keep formation in order for each soldier to cover the other. Its meant to repeal frontal assaults, and then advance slowly upon the enemy once they’re exhausted. The phalanx would be the formation human troops would use against the ponies.
 
A larger spear is also not necessarily an advantage either. A lighter spear has more options. And again, a pony cannot manipulate a spear or any weapon as well as a human can with just their hooves. A human can wield a spear or sword with far greater effect than a pony would in close quarters. Pony spears are used more like lances. Meaning if the opponent dodges or the spear breaks, the pony wielding it is big trouble.
 
Looking at how the ponies in the show such as the Royal Guards fight, even in timelines like the Crystal War where they’ve been expanded into an actual army, they’re not very impressive. Their tactics are basic and just boil down to charge straight at the enemy. They had trouble with Sombra’s army of random ponies he’s mind-controlled who have no will of their own.
Background Pony #7AD3
@Background Pony #7AD3
You say a pony would be impossible to stop by a human opponent, except for one thing, guns. I’m pretty sure a regiment of humans armed with guns would easily stop a force of charging ponies. Armored or not. And add cannons to the equation and the ponies would be annihilated.
That’s actually why humans overall are better at warfare than the ponies. They may have more muscle power in their bodies, but we have hands. Allowing us to make and use a wide variety of weapons, giving us far more options in combat. Even the Equeastria ponies, with their more flexible bodies, still can’t match the wide range of weaponry human hands can wield.
Even pegasi would be no match for human aircraft. Or anti-aircraft ground based guns. Their weather manipulation abilities might be a problem, but those take time so if the humans strike first before the pegasi can amass enough clouds for say a hurricane, they’re done for.
Even in medieval warfare an army of humans could probably best an army of ponies. Pike formations could easily stop a force of charging ponies while the archers behind the pikes fill them with arrows. This would especially be devastating if the humans have time to prepare before the battle, such as picking a spot where they’d have an advantage such as upon a hill or series of hill giving them the high ground and have time to set up things like wooden stakes along the ground. Look at the Battle of Agincourt for such an example.
 
Do you realize that the ponies have projectile weapons, and that they are not unfamiliar with cannons?
 
Moreover, it had already been shown in the Middle Ages that it is difficult to kill a horse with an arrow, and it could withstand most man-made weapons intended for brutal force rather than cutting deep into the body. Often one had to use stabbing weapons to force down and kill a horse, such as a spear or a pike, but the foot soldiers know all too well that they risked being ridden down by attacking horses that at least will not hit them directly. They must thus end the ranks as close as possible, and hold their spears or pikes as close as possible to scare the horses from getting too close. Most horses will not put themselves in direct danger, but there were many examples of horses that did not hesitate to attack and trample people to death or tear them apart, all they needed was training and a violent life. The horse in the Middle Ages was beaten, whipped and trained hard to get used to risking the life. A hurried horse will be very dangerous to anyone nearby, as this can go berserk.
 
It was only with flintlock that it was possible to have guns, but that does not mean that a regiment can stop an attack of ponies with ease, because armor was in fact bulletproof to a greater degree than many people know; a cavalryman with a breastplate in the 19th century can survive a shot at close range if the bullet from the weapon hit the chest plate. Only during hand-to-hand combat the breastplate can be penetrated. A pony can wear armor more easily than a human, and there are G4 knight armor that is so complete that only extremely brutal force and stab through vulnerable points will be effective. The ponies have momentum, strength and their intelligence on their side, so a cavalry attack will be far more destructive, as they will not hesitate to hit the humans directly. It is only with weapons from the time of industrialization that the human will have a chance on the battlefield.
 
Within the artillery, the ponies have an advantage; they will be more mobile, tactically flexible and have more suitable cannon weapons - it is also not well known that the human armies struggle a lot to be able to move their cannons until about 1750, and often it turned out that they had to have small calibrated cannons with too bad effect with it; and when they took larger cannons with them, they must have up to six to eight horses per cannon. It was only with the petrol vehicle from the interwar period only 100 years ago that the horses could be replaced. The ponies can gallop their cannons just outside the range, fire them and then move away at a greater speed than their counterparts, and they have heavy-caliber guns as seen with the Pinkie`s cannons. Also, the pony has an advantage; he or she is up to seven times as strong as a normal horse due to the magic. Two ponies can replace six horses, and make up a smaller target on the battlefield.
 
So there is thus only one effective method; hit-and-run tactics with heavy emphasis on heavier stab weapons and projectile weapons such as crossbows that are far more effective than just bow and arrow. The human must fight like a griffon; great movement, precise stab attacks and aim to exhaust the pony so he can insert the stroke of grace, but then the human must never get too close to the pony, because he has no claws and beak, only a slender body with little muscle strength and almost nothing from the nature. The pony, on the other hand, if he is desperate enough, will use his teeth to bite and tear like a normal horse. The horse in our world can break the elbow bone in a bite.
 
Unicorns can manipulate their weapons better than human soldiers because they can move a sword or spear in true three-dimensional circumstances as long as they can “see” their weapons and use them, so a skilled fencer will have big problems. The Pegasi can fly, hover and throw their weapons, and are as aggressive as our medieval warhorses (extinct, unfortunately) with mounted weapons on them, and they will probably be able to “bomb” an army formation with a rain of deadly throwing arrows. There was never an air defense until the twentieth century. The earth ponies will win every time there is a clash between formations, because they will be much stronger, wear heavier armor and can use the same tactical formation as a phalanx. An earth pony is so strong that he could be compared to a rhino in our world, and it was seen that ponies can walk on three legs to a certain extent, so they can have shields with them.
 
The G4 spear is massive compared to a human spear, in both the spearhead and the rod. Because raw power is needed during pony-to-pony combat, because light wounds and even fatal wounds will not put them out of action right away. The griffons can fight up close with their feline reflexes, a deadly beak and equally deadly claws, moreover, they are as strong as lions, leopards and tigers from our world. In fact, almost all beings in Equus are better than the human in violence on a battlefield from before 1750.
Background Pony #7AD3
I don’t think violence is necessary to tell a story, or that a story is better or “more realistic” by having violence in it.
 
There are lots of vague clues to such a violent nature in the MLP G4, which never came out, and only very few times were “allowed” as when Twilight went berserk against Tirek after the destruction of her home in Ponyville. Faust “saved” the MLP who is struggling after early generations either went wrong or was too awkward after the end of G1, by bringing in her own character traits from early work, especially “The Powerpuff Girls” with female heroes - which were not a little violent and irrationally aggressive at times. She managed to revive the MLP because it had been forgotten - that violence is part of nature, an inalienable truth that should not be ignored, and most children are really violent towards each other when they need to learn norms in ethics and morality. All famous fairy tales intended for children and young people in Europe have elements of violence, conflict, adult topics and controversial issues that are understood by the audience.
 
On a personal level, especially around the Mane 6, the writers were successful with this, but not with the rest of the G4, with very few exceptions they were prevented from politicizing Equestria beyond random flags, names and representatives, and were forced to keep it very simple and very little controversial, everything had to be concentrated on just one particular group. The equestrian soldiers came into the background, and unfortunately there has been a tendency towards anti-authoritarian treatment of those in power, who are often caricatured until the absurd, and this hit Discord as well in S8 and S9. We learned almost nothing about politics, the state, the military and everything else that belonged to a realm subject to a hierarchy of power, even in S9 when Twilight was to take over. What Hasbro wants, and which Faust refused to give when she quit and left, was an unrealistic “Fairy Tale” aimed at the toddlers, as she wants an open and realistic everyday life for the ponies.
 
Now it’s a little different with the G5, from the last trailer we saw ponies fighting each other where Izzy and Sunny had almost been killed by a detached weapon - this happens very rarely in the show, and far more frequently in the IDW comics.
 
A little violence is better than nothing.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Background Pony #7AD3  
You say a pony would be impossible to stop by a human opponent, except for one thing, guns. I’m pretty sure a regiment of humans armed with guns would easily stop a force of charging ponies. Armored or not. And add cannons to the equation and the ponies would be annihilated.
 
That’s actually why humans overall are better at warfare than the ponies. They may have more muscle power in their bodies, but we have hands. Allowing us to make and use a wide variety of weapons, giving us far more options in combat. Even the Equeastria ponies, with their more flexible bodies, still can’t match the wide range of weaponry human hands can wield.
 
Even pegasi would be no match for human aircraft. Or anti-aircraft ground based guns. Their weather manipulation abilities might be a problem, but those take time so if the humans strike first before the pegasi can amass enough clouds for say a hurricane, they’re done for.
 
Even in medieval warfare an army of humans could probably best an army of ponies. Pike formations could easily stop a force of charging ponies while the archers behind the pikes fill them with arrows. This would especially be devastating if the humans have time to prepare before the battle, such as picking a spot where they’d have an advantage such as upon a hill or series of hill giving them the high ground and have time to set up things like wooden stakes along the ground. Look at the Battle of Agincourt for such an example.
Background Pony #7AD3
It’s simple because Hasbro does not want to weaken the ponies’ popularity by showing them as violent beings no better than others, the idea was to present them as magical peaceful creatures in peaceful surroundings, in the G1 they were “princesses in need” with Megan as the knight to the rescue of them. In the G4, the alicorns’ magical power was used to create a separation between the use of violence and the ponies, which manifested itself in the case of the guards who were considered useless. As long as the villains remain magical, it was possible to avoid the use of military and organized violence, but few times as when the changelings invaded Canterlot, when Sombra in an alternative reality started war against Equestria and when the Storm King invaded Equestria, was a visible absence on organized resistance. We could only see from a distance that when Twilight saw Ponyville in flames, it was only once we saw real war, and it was in the movie where Tempest rightly remarked that such high potential was wasted, and sometimes the writers` s tendency to downplayed the royal sisters so badly, that these were incompetent, useless and worse - ineffective. And makes the G4 world totally unrealistic, even for toddlers.
 
There had been too much pacifism in the work around G4, when there was a focus on young children who were to be protected from displaying violence and other things that were perceived to be brutal, the children in the 1980s were exposed to much more than this when the G1 was aired . Overprotection tendencies are what make ponies hopeless in war, the Mane 6 had long fought against their opponents and then learned how to fight together. Which was wanted by the writers. In the IDW it is a little easier, but not much more, as death, injury and violence should still be averted “so as not to inflict serious trauma on children”. Thus we find it only in the fanon work and in the background material around G4.
 
If the ponies were realistic, we would have seen organized violence, military organization, tactical and strategic planning, etc. - and it was mostly only the pegasi from before the founding of Equestria that give the impression of it in the G4. The horse in our world is really no less violent than man, there are herds of horses in Siberia that fight like a human military formation against wolf herds. If a human were to fight an equestrian pony, he would lose because the pony will have greater muscle power, a strong body, bone-hard hooves that can crush a human head with a blow and can more easily gain an overview due to the placement of the eyes and the rotating ears. A pony in armor will be almost impossible to stop, from our world a war horse in full armor could be completely unstoppable even in the face of longbow archers in the 15th century. In addition, the equestrian pony has the advantage of being more coordinated and precise in his movements with flexible forelegs, and can stand on two and fight without much effort. A flying pegasi would have been a nightmare for a human to fight, especially with weather manipulative abilities.
 
But Hasbro does not want this, and Lauren Faust saved the entire MLP as she continued her concept of violence and intimidation into the world of ponies, only under strong censorship. If this had not happened, the G4 would never have survived and the MLP ponies would remain a single area for toddlers not worth the attention of adults. The monsters, Nightmare Moon and the various enemies like Discord and Sombra were important to make the G4 a success.
 
It is not possible to avoid violence. There are children’s books and comics that are far more violent, intended for toddlers and children in both the United States and Europe. The cartoons of the 1980s are many times more violent than those of the 2010s.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Phoenixflambe  
She also recognized how the overreliance on magic led to the Princesses’s inability to think strategically. As she mocked Celestia and Luna during their battle. And why she had a much harder time against the Mane 6 and Spike, who used clever tactics and teamwork to keep her off balance.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Starswirl  
Its still not as if they beat them in a straight up fight. In a direct confrontation the dragons would win. Mainly because the ponies have not shown that much success in using their powers in a fight. They can be useful, but rarely are. Mainly because ponies prefer to use them for other things. I count actual combat skill. And the ponies military is lacking that.
 
As Tempest said in the movie-“All this power, wasted on parties.”
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Starswirl  
Seems more likely, considering Equestria for the longest time had no adequate preparations or defenses for emergencies like these from what we’ve seen.
 
Except they weren’t able to fight them off. Flash and his squad were more concerned about escape than actually defeating those two dragons. Which makes sense because, in a polonged encounter, Torch and the other dragon would have easily killed those Pegasi. But since the Pillars left, Equestria has become more dependent on the Princesses than any real defense force.
Starswirl
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@GeneralKenobi75  
Perhaps it’s impossible. Who knows.
 
Hm, you know, if the legends around Flash Magnus are to be believed, a small squad of pegasi was enough in the past to fight off at least two dragons with some preparation. Makes you wonder what happened since then.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Starswirl  
Which is also a sign that the ponies are overly reliant on a handful of people to protect them. Once a real threat comes, the ponies are quick to panic like when the Storm King invaded or the Windigos returned.
 
The pertrification grenade allowed her to take down the princesses yes, but imagine if a far less skilled and agile person used it. The fact Tempest was able to use it to take down all three Princesses in rapid succession shows how skilled a warrior she is. Heck, none of the Princesses even got a shot off at her. They were just taken down in an instant.
 
The Storm King’s forces used magic and technology in combination. In fact they had technology that nullified magic. The Storm King also had an actual army.
 
My point is, the military forces of Equestria are useless against a real threat. Magic or no they are a joke whenever they go up against a major enemy. The Changelings were able to overwhelm them with sheer numbers once Canterlot’s force field collapsed. The only time we see them stand any kind of chance was in the alternate timeline with the war with King Sombra. And there they were up against normal ponies under mind control with little will of their own. That’s the only enemy they’ve been shown to be a match for. And even then it took Equestria having to resort to total war to even hold their own against Sombra’s army. If a army equipped with modern weapons ever invaded Equestria and the Princesses were taken out, the Equestrian army would be screwed.
 
Also, given the number of villains that can use mind control. Why hasn’t Twilight and the other Princesses thought of a way to block mind control?
Starswirl
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@GeneralKenobi75  
Don’t forget the Elements of Harmony themselves. The ponies, I mean. They battle monsters so often, the rest of Ponyville seems almost used to it by now.
 
Also, regarding Tempest Shadow. Yes, she was very dangerous, but she wouldn’t have been nearly as much without her I-Win button magical grenade. In fact, yes, the ponies rely almost entirely on magic, but so do the villains—and their magic is usually more powerful in direct combat. Or makes a direct confrontation meaningless, like the Knights of Harmony show. Unless you can make your soldiers immune to mind-control, they had no real chance to contribute meaningfully anyway.
GeneralKenobi75
Lunar Supporter - Helped forge New Lunar Republic's freedom in the face of the Solar Empire's oppressive tyrannical regime (April Fools 2023).

@Jacalope  
Mainly because they overly rely on magic and the Princesses to take care of the danger. Apparently since Nightmare Moon was banished, there hasn’t been a real threat to Equestria until her return in Season 1.
 
But none of them have applied those abilities in a real military fashion. The Royal Guard seems mostly ceremonial or the Princesses’s personal messengers. They also have not advanced technologically that much either. Again, a reliance on magic. Most equipment in Equestria is either run by magic, or muscle power.
 
That’s not necessarily a bad thing. We wouldn’t have much of a story if the Equestrian Army could solve all the problems. But its become a joke among the fandom that the Equestrian Military, both the Wonderbolts and the Royal Guard, are useless.
 
The series never really got into those implications to begin with. In fact, it didn’t start getting into the wider world of Equestria until the later seasons. Right from the beginning it was mainly slice of life stories. MLP only started to get really epic in scale in later seasons. Mostly by Season 3, but really more after Twilight became an Alicorn. By then we had arc villains, not just ones introduced to bookend the seasons.