Season 7 Episode Discussion [Speculation, Discussion, Spoilers] (SPOILER YOUR LEAKS)
Poison Trail 
@Josh103
That would be great!
With what we’ve come to expect so far, though, I’d say it’s more probable that Trixie will become a top-tier spellcaster simply from being so close to someone as charismatic as Starlight. Then all that will be needed are amazing displays of her strength, constitution and dexterity!
“Let’s show off our pet project mastering every single aspects of a D&D character, then they’ll all like her!”
That would be great!
With what we’ve come to expect so far, though, I’d say it’s more probable that Trixie will become a top-tier spellcaster simply from being so close to someone as charismatic as Starlight. Then all that will be needed are amazing displays of her strength, constitution and dexterity!
“Let’s show off our pet project mastering every single aspects of a D&D character, then they’ll all like her!”
09MurphyM
@Poison Trail
Even then, Starlight and Twilight would know magic that Trixie would not even begin to understand, such as Starlight’s mysterious emotion magic.
Even then, Starlight and Twilight would know magic that Trixie would not even begin to understand, such as Starlight’s mysterious emotion magic.
Lord WyrmSpawN 
Lingering Wyvern
@09MurphyM
I don’t think she does that on purpose.
And ‘mysterious’? She knew what it was and explained it right away.
I don’t think she does that on purpose.
And ‘mysterious’? She knew what it was and explained it right away.
CronoM
@Wiimeiser
More or less.
@Darth Sonic
Allright, allright, I understand how you feel :) The big gripe I have with it as Celestia episode is Celestia is only bearing her soul on her terms, which happens a lot only in smaller quantities. She’s comparing apples and oranges just because the scenario ‘looks’ similar. When Celestia sent Twilight away, it was the START of her friendship lessons.
If anything, the only unusual shift came from Spike, who in the earlier scene, tried to start pushing boundries and expand on their friendship by referring to Twilight differently and more teenage-like when calling her “Sparkle”, which Twilight hasn’t bothered in 7 seasons even after the S1 premier because she’s, well, not very introspective.
We need a LOT more Amending Fences-type episodes before Twilight earns her own ‘introspection merit badge’, which most of the main characters got by S2, and even a lot of side characters later on.
@Background Pony #55CC
“So if Celestia hadn’t been so distracted by not wanting to lose Twi, then she would’ve sent her there earlier and mght have had a chance to make friends with the 5 before NMM’s release, rather than cutting it so close like she did.”
Cutting it close was the only option. Unlike Sci Twi, Twilight was always succeed-first, empathy later since she got chosen by Celestia to be a personal student and Celestia never encouraged her developing any friendships before ponyville. Encouraging Twilight to be social before hand wasn’t an option because it risked forming strong bonds with her Canterlot Friends foremost in comparison to her future Ponyville friends. By the time she was old enough to actually be sent away, she would of already been antisocial and shutting people out for a very long time. She would of just shut the other Mane 5 out. She had to be new and uncertain about them, then have a trial by fire to even try to like them.
“who’s to say she wasn’t putting on an act of confidence for her sister too?”
Either way would be a horrible scenario. Either A, she was giving an act of confidence to her sister in secret to the OTHER face she shows Twilight, and this plan of telling Twilight to do it alone was just an unnecessarily risky gamble she had no idea if it would work. Or B, Luna saw through any masks Celestia could pull up (proved in Slice of Life), and Luna could see how supremely confident and risky Celestia’s gamble with the crystal empire was and the idea she knew Twilight’s insecurities so well enough to know Twilight wouldn’t abandon her ‘assignment’ the second lives were really at stake, but only at the last moment, all for the scheme to make Twilight a princess.
Either way, Luna was unquestionably perturbed by Celestia’s methods that time, and for good reason.
When Celestia sent Twilight away, it was the START of her friendship lessons, and Twilight was more under Celestia’s expectations then ever, and Celestia knew Twilight felt that way.
More or less.
@Darth Sonic
Allright, allright, I understand how you feel :) The big gripe I have with it as Celestia episode is Celestia is only bearing her soul on her terms, which happens a lot only in smaller quantities. She’s comparing apples and oranges just because the scenario ‘looks’ similar. When Celestia sent Twilight away, it was the START of her friendship lessons.
If anything, the only unusual shift came from Spike, who in the earlier scene, tried to start pushing boundries and expand on their friendship by referring to Twilight differently and more teenage-like when calling her “Sparkle”, which Twilight hasn’t bothered in 7 seasons even after the S1 premier because she’s, well, not very introspective.
We need a LOT more Amending Fences-type episodes before Twilight earns her own ‘introspection merit badge’, which most of the main characters got by S2, and even a lot of side characters later on.
@Background Pony #55CC
“So if Celestia hadn’t been so distracted by not wanting to lose Twi, then she would’ve sent her there earlier and mght have had a chance to make friends with the 5 before NMM’s release, rather than cutting it so close like she did.”
Cutting it close was the only option. Unlike Sci Twi, Twilight was always succeed-first, empathy later since she got chosen by Celestia to be a personal student and Celestia never encouraged her developing any friendships before ponyville. Encouraging Twilight to be social before hand wasn’t an option because it risked forming strong bonds with her Canterlot Friends foremost in comparison to her future Ponyville friends. By the time she was old enough to actually be sent away, she would of already been antisocial and shutting people out for a very long time. She would of just shut the other Mane 5 out. She had to be new and uncertain about them, then have a trial by fire to even try to like them.
“who’s to say she wasn’t putting on an act of confidence for her sister too?”
Either way would be a horrible scenario. Either A, she was giving an act of confidence to her sister in secret to the OTHER face she shows Twilight, and this plan of telling Twilight to do it alone was just an unnecessarily risky gamble she had no idea if it would work. Or B, Luna saw through any masks Celestia could pull up (proved in Slice of Life), and Luna could see how supremely confident and risky Celestia’s gamble with the crystal empire was and the idea she knew Twilight’s insecurities so well enough to know Twilight wouldn’t abandon her ‘assignment’ the second lives were really at stake, but only at the last moment, all for the scheme to make Twilight a princess.
Either way, Luna was unquestionably perturbed by Celestia’s methods that time, and for good reason.
When Celestia sent Twilight away, it was the START of her friendship lessons, and Twilight was more under Celestia’s expectations then ever, and Celestia knew Twilight felt that way.
CronoM
@Background Pony #55CC
I almost agree…but the similar feelings but different situations don’t match up.
Twilight was going through the motions thinking of sending Starlight away in exactly the way you described. However in Celestia’s case, it was more to establish even more control over Twilight when she was sent away. She nurtured Twilight’s hyper dependency more and more and more, and hardly for Twilight’s emotional benefit. This circus of princesshood, having a castle and being responsible for an apprentice has had Twilight reliant on Celestia’s word more then ever, even with commands preposterous and filled with risks for her friends.
Celestia THOUGHT all these partially arranged accomplishments and credit would make her the perfect princess with a large amount of Self-sustained confidence.
What Celestia DIDN’T count on was, in the process of setting Twilight up for success, princesshood, Titles and Castles, Twilight would treasure her hyper-dependence with Celestia over all the confidence boosters, hence Celestia’s ‘getting sick of this’ attitude with Twilight in S6; the supposed Princess and Teacher of friendship, was as insecure and praise craving as a 3rd grade teacher’s pet.
I can’t tell whether what Celestia said after finally absorbing the absurdity of it all and laughing it off was a) partially true, b) a good thing for Twilight to hear, c) both, or d) neither. None of us have enough info on her. We need some Celestia episodes where she’s completely out of her element for more then seconds at a time.
An entire episode with Celestia and Luna, with Luna being frank towards her sister would be an absolute treasure trove. If not the episodes, I hope the movie can take us to a similar place.
I almost agree…but the similar feelings but different situations don’t match up.
Twilight was going through the motions thinking of sending Starlight away in exactly the way you described. However in Celestia’s case, it was more to establish even more control over Twilight when she was sent away. She nurtured Twilight’s hyper dependency more and more and more, and hardly for Twilight’s emotional benefit. This circus of princesshood, having a castle and being responsible for an apprentice has had Twilight reliant on Celestia’s word more then ever, even with commands preposterous and filled with risks for her friends.
Celestia THOUGHT all these partially arranged accomplishments and credit would make her the perfect princess with a large amount of Self-sustained confidence.
What Celestia DIDN’T count on was, in the process of setting Twilight up for success, princesshood, Titles and Castles, Twilight would treasure her hyper-dependence with Celestia over all the confidence boosters, hence Celestia’s ‘getting sick of this’ attitude with Twilight in S6; the supposed Princess and Teacher of friendship, was as insecure and praise craving as a 3rd grade teacher’s pet.
I can’t tell whether what Celestia said after finally absorbing the absurdity of it all and laughing it off was a) partially true, b) a good thing for Twilight to hear, c) both, or d) neither. None of us have enough info on her. We need some Celestia episodes where she’s completely out of her element for more then seconds at a time.
An entire episode with Celestia and Luna, with Luna being frank towards her sister would be an absolute treasure trove. If not the episodes, I hope the movie can take us to a similar place.
Background Pony #37C1
@CronoM
Celestia in the episode mentions that she was contemplating closing the library or arranging a party at her castle in order to encourage Twi to make friends with people in Canterlot. To me that says that she wanted Twilight to get better at making friends and being sociable BEFORE shipping her off to Ponyville to get with the element bearers. Which in a way makes sense. You don’t send someone off with the fate of your sister on their shoulders with NO SOCIAL SKILLS! That’s the way it happened, but there’s nothing that says that the Remane 5 had to be Twi’s first friends ever. Just that they resonated together as the elements of harmoney.
But Celestia was too scared of losing Twilight, and held off on sending her away.
Celestia also says that she became aware of her fault after finally sending her away, so her actions from then on make sense. From then on she trusts Twilight in situations like the Crystal Empire. She can utilize her for her schemes because she’s gotten past that overprotective feeling of loneliness and sees Twilight as someone to be respected and nurtured.
The whole feeling of obsolescence that Twi and Tia felt was an irrational fear, brought on because of how much they cared for their students. A maternal instinct. It got in the way of Tia’s oftentimes impressive planning and people reading abilities.
Celestia in the episode mentions that she was contemplating closing the library or arranging a party at her castle in order to encourage Twi to make friends with people in Canterlot. To me that says that she wanted Twilight to get better at making friends and being sociable BEFORE shipping her off to Ponyville to get with the element bearers. Which in a way makes sense. You don’t send someone off with the fate of your sister on their shoulders with NO SOCIAL SKILLS! That’s the way it happened, but there’s nothing that says that the Remane 5 had to be Twi’s first friends ever. Just that they resonated together as the elements of harmoney.
But Celestia was too scared of losing Twilight, and held off on sending her away.
Celestia also says that she became aware of her fault after finally sending her away, so her actions from then on make sense. From then on she trusts Twilight in situations like the Crystal Empire. She can utilize her for her schemes because she’s gotten past that overprotective feeling of loneliness and sees Twilight as someone to be respected and nurtured.
The whole feeling of obsolescence that Twi and Tia felt was an irrational fear, brought on because of how much they cared for their students. A maternal instinct. It got in the way of Tia’s oftentimes impressive planning and people reading abilities.
SuperFlame
Lost in thought
I’m actually curious as to why they decided not to do a two-parter this opening.
Background Pony #2FC6
@SuperFlame
Because they started working on season 7 while still working on 6
https://twitter.com/TheBiggestJim/status/853424310098182144
Because they started working on season 7 while still working on 6
https://twitter.com/TheBiggestJim/status/853424310098182144
CronoM
@Background Pony #55CC
“but there’s nothing that says that the Remane 5 had to be Twi’s first friends ever. Just that they resonated together as the elements of harmony.”
Except that part is completely incorrect. She can’t form the strongest bonds of harmony if she’s mourning her friends in Canterlot and pursuing friendship in Ponyville half heartily. Their power would of failed against Nightmare Moon. She’s an element of harmony but also the element of magic, with no morality qualifications other then understanding the moralities imparted to her by her friends and betters. And the stronger the bond, the stronger the magic.
We can only take what Celestia says with a grain of salt. Unlike Zecora, the unlying sage/yoda character in mlp, Celestia on always the line between purity and manipulation. She didn’t need to close a library or arrange a party to make Twilight more sociable, she could of easily done that gradually because Twilight will take anything Celestia says as truth and that’s a fact. Did you notice Celestia didn’t mention any straightforword attempts to have her make friends? Only exaggerated extremes she never enacted on?…..Yep, that’s right, its a classic method. I am well versed in conversation tactics, and Celestia is a master conversationalist.
Losing Twilight? Twilight was holed up in her old Canterlot study house researching Nightmare Moon until she became so certain and obsessed that she was going to return to Equestria, that even Celestia’s words of chilling out and making friends in Ponyville wouldn’t dissuade her. Which was Celestia’s plan the whole time. Instead of telling Twilight Nightmare Moon was real and forcing friendship, she had her meet the other Twilight for once didn’t take it seriously, thus the connections formed naturally.
“From then on she trusts Twilight in situations like the Crystal Empire. She can utilize her for her schemes because she’s gotten past that overprotective feeling of loneliness and sees Twilight as someone to be respected and nurtured.”
I don’t even know what to do with these sentences. Are you trying to convince me or yourself, cause I don’t see either working.
“trusts”
then
“utilize” and “schemes”
then
“protected” and “nurtured”
What is even…???? Trust is a two way street, that has nothing to do with constant manipulations and schemed nurturing. What kind of life experiences do you have to have to make those kind of statements?
The only fear behind the scenes was Luna’s fear of Celestia’s obsession into turning Twilight into the perfect princess.
The only action Celestia’s taken toward ‘being aware of her fault for sending Twilight away too late”, was her attitude toward her in S6. The actions Celestia took from S1 and onward allowed her to manipulate Twilight perfectly in practically every situation that required emotionless raising of a ‘princess’. Only in S6 did Celestia realize her brown-nosing personality was nearly incurable possibly due to sending her out in the world too late.
One of the clearly half-honest things Celestia said to Twilight was that she failed Twilight, not as a princess, but as a person. Twilight’s so separated from reality and only now does Celestia realize how much of a spaz her ‘princess of friendship’ is almost permanently. Celestia’s obsession was hardly maternal, otherwise she would of used moderate methods to allow Twilight to make friends years ago.
“but there’s nothing that says that the Remane 5 had to be Twi’s first friends ever. Just that they resonated together as the elements of harmony.”
Except that part is completely incorrect. She can’t form the strongest bonds of harmony if she’s mourning her friends in Canterlot and pursuing friendship in Ponyville half heartily. Their power would of failed against Nightmare Moon. She’s an element of harmony but also the element of magic, with no morality qualifications other then understanding the moralities imparted to her by her friends and betters. And the stronger the bond, the stronger the magic.
We can only take what Celestia says with a grain of salt. Unlike Zecora, the unlying sage/yoda character in mlp, Celestia on always the line between purity and manipulation. She didn’t need to close a library or arrange a party to make Twilight more sociable, she could of easily done that gradually because Twilight will take anything Celestia says as truth and that’s a fact. Did you notice Celestia didn’t mention any straightforword attempts to have her make friends? Only exaggerated extremes she never enacted on?…..Yep, that’s right, its a classic method. I am well versed in conversation tactics, and Celestia is a master conversationalist.
Losing Twilight? Twilight was holed up in her old Canterlot study house researching Nightmare Moon until she became so certain and obsessed that she was going to return to Equestria, that even Celestia’s words of chilling out and making friends in Ponyville wouldn’t dissuade her. Which was Celestia’s plan the whole time. Instead of telling Twilight Nightmare Moon was real and forcing friendship, she had her meet the other Twilight for once didn’t take it seriously, thus the connections formed naturally.
“From then on she trusts Twilight in situations like the Crystal Empire. She can utilize her for her schemes because she’s gotten past that overprotective feeling of loneliness and sees Twilight as someone to be respected and nurtured.”
I don’t even know what to do with these sentences. Are you trying to convince me or yourself, cause I don’t see either working.
“trusts”
then
“utilize” and “schemes”
then
“protected” and “nurtured”
What is even…???? Trust is a two way street, that has nothing to do with constant manipulations and schemed nurturing. What kind of life experiences do you have to have to make those kind of statements?
The only fear behind the scenes was Luna’s fear of Celestia’s obsession into turning Twilight into the perfect princess.
The only action Celestia’s taken toward ‘being aware of her fault for sending Twilight away too late”, was her attitude toward her in S6. The actions Celestia took from S1 and onward allowed her to manipulate Twilight perfectly in practically every situation that required emotionless raising of a ‘princess’. Only in S6 did Celestia realize her brown-nosing personality was nearly incurable possibly due to sending her out in the world too late.
One of the clearly half-honest things Celestia said to Twilight was that she failed Twilight, not as a princess, but as a person. Twilight’s so separated from reality and only now does Celestia realize how much of a spaz her ‘princess of friendship’ is almost permanently. Celestia’s obsession was hardly maternal, otherwise she would of used moderate methods to allow Twilight to make friends years ago.
Background Pony #D451
@CronoM
Yes, I can say the words “Utilize” and “trust” in the same sentence because that’s how I’ve ALWAYS read Celestia. Celestia is on some level a manipulator, yes, but she actually cares about the people close to her. She’s a game of thrones character living in a world of pastel ponies and friendship, who deeply cares about how innocent the world she lives in is, and does her damndest to maintain that kind aura for the genuine emotional health of her subjects even if it has to be through duplicity sometimes.
You mention that she didn’t act upon any of those things I mentioned like closing the library, and if she really wanted to make Twilight get friends then she would’ve just told her directly. Remember, in the episode Celestia said she DIDN’T want Twilight to make friends. She was afraid that if Twi made friends then she wouldn’t need Celestia anymore, and so Tia held off on doing anything that would help Twilight. That’s why she didn’t act upon the party in the castle and stuff, and it’s why she waited until the last second to send Twilight away.
Remember, when Twilight went to Ponyville, she didn’t think she would be there forever, so even if she made friends in Canterlot she wouldn’t be mourning her relationships with them. She wouldn’t think they’d be over. She would’ve had more social skills and would’ve been able to recognize how special the remane 5 are and likely would’ve bonded with them more naturally.
Remember, if NMM hadn’t happened to throw traps that coincidentally perfectly alligned with the element bearer’s traits in a way that showed them off to Twilight, Twilight would’ve had no idea how special any of them were because she didn’t give a rats ass about any of them. Celestia got impossibly lucky that happened.
Yes, I can say the words “Utilize” and “trust” in the same sentence because that’s how I’ve ALWAYS read Celestia. Celestia is on some level a manipulator, yes, but she actually cares about the people close to her. She’s a game of thrones character living in a world of pastel ponies and friendship, who deeply cares about how innocent the world she lives in is, and does her damndest to maintain that kind aura for the genuine emotional health of her subjects even if it has to be through duplicity sometimes.
You mention that she didn’t act upon any of those things I mentioned like closing the library, and if she really wanted to make Twilight get friends then she would’ve just told her directly. Remember, in the episode Celestia said she DIDN’T want Twilight to make friends. She was afraid that if Twi made friends then she wouldn’t need Celestia anymore, and so Tia held off on doing anything that would help Twilight. That’s why she didn’t act upon the party in the castle and stuff, and it’s why she waited until the last second to send Twilight away.
Remember, when Twilight went to Ponyville, she didn’t think she would be there forever, so even if she made friends in Canterlot she wouldn’t be mourning her relationships with them. She wouldn’t think they’d be over. She would’ve had more social skills and would’ve been able to recognize how special the remane 5 are and likely would’ve bonded with them more naturally.
Remember, if NMM hadn’t happened to throw traps that coincidentally perfectly alligned with the element bearer’s traits in a way that showed them off to Twilight, Twilight would’ve had no idea how special any of them were because she didn’t give a rats ass about any of them. Celestia got impossibly lucky that happened.
Villain Pony
copy&paste
It’s amazing how many people blame Celestia for everything instead of say, I dunno, shoddy writing or poor plot planning.
Dustcan 
Dogs
@Villain Pony
Consequently by doing so you remove all agency from the character.
‘It’s not Celestia’s fault she’s boring, she’s just written boringly. She’d be an entertaining character if she was written entertainingly!’
Consequently by doing so you remove all agency from the character.
‘It’s not Celestia’s fault she’s boring, she’s just written boringly. She’d be an entertaining character if she was written entertainingly!’
Background Pony #14B6
@gingerninja666
Your first paragraph is partially sound, but keep in mind that the world she lives in does not outweigh the pony she is nurturing and manipulating from hooves length. Luna knows how unhealthyly obsessed celestia has become in making twi a goddess/princess/hero. In her mind, that is her saving the world. And bas ed on your description of celestia, there is NOTHING celestia would say to twilight that guarantees truth when success is more important.
Your second paragraph is simply avoiding the blindspots in her argument. Her exaggerated arguments towards her not socializing in canterlot, which were completely unnecessary but used as a conversation tactic, we’re not directly linked to her final worries about sending her to ponyville. Plus your argument completely disregards that th5e person in question is twilight sparkle, and based on both our thoughts on the real celestia, such worries would never cross her mind, and they obviously didn’t.
For your third paragraph, you are talking about a twilight sparkle that doesn’t exist. Your conclusions are wild guesses. Celestia was dealing with an element of friendship that worshipped her and didn’t care squat about friendship. Even 7 seasons in she’s almost always out of sych with the rest of her friends, she herself admits true empathy is the most difficult thing for her.
In regards to both your third and fourth paragraph, nothing was guerenteed. One thing she DID know is that the mane 6 were the incarnations of harmony itself, not just element users like she and luna were. She has enough foresight living 1000 years, enough to know how to manipulate someone as antisocial as twi to almost ensure becoming comrades, and the rest would fall into place or not. Fate vs Willpower, either way all 6 together were not going to fail defeating nmm.
However, after all the manipulations are done, she can’t manipulate an easily manipulated person to step up on her own. The method of raising her wasn’t perfect, celestia still is terrible with family or close friends. In the end, twilight is more like a puppet filled with neorosis.
Your first paragraph is partially sound, but keep in mind that the world she lives in does not outweigh the pony she is nurturing and manipulating from hooves length. Luna knows how unhealthyly obsessed celestia has become in making twi a goddess/princess/hero. In her mind, that is her saving the world. And bas ed on your description of celestia, there is NOTHING celestia would say to twilight that guarantees truth when success is more important.
Your second paragraph is simply avoiding the blindspots in her argument. Her exaggerated arguments towards her not socializing in canterlot, which were completely unnecessary but used as a conversation tactic, we’re not directly linked to her final worries about sending her to ponyville. Plus your argument completely disregards that th5e person in question is twilight sparkle, and based on both our thoughts on the real celestia, such worries would never cross her mind, and they obviously didn’t.
For your third paragraph, you are talking about a twilight sparkle that doesn’t exist. Your conclusions are wild guesses. Celestia was dealing with an element of friendship that worshipped her and didn’t care squat about friendship. Even 7 seasons in she’s almost always out of sych with the rest of her friends, she herself admits true empathy is the most difficult thing for her.
In regards to both your third and fourth paragraph, nothing was guerenteed. One thing she DID know is that the mane 6 were the incarnations of harmony itself, not just element users like she and luna were. She has enough foresight living 1000 years, enough to know how to manipulate someone as antisocial as twi to almost ensure becoming comrades, and the rest would fall into place or not. Fate vs Willpower, either way all 6 together were not going to fail defeating nmm.
However, after all the manipulations are done, she can’t manipulate an easily manipulated person to step up on her own. The method of raising her wasn’t perfect, celestia still is terrible with family or close friends. In the end, twilight is more like a puppet filled with neorosis.
CronoM
@Villain Pony
It’s not like we’re disregarding that, but pointing out the epicenter characters of the bad writing is a more focused approach then simply saying the writing is bad. Plus, some characters are easier to write good then others.
It’s not like we’re disregarding that, but pointing out the epicenter characters of the bad writing is a more focused approach then simply saying the writing is bad. Plus, some characters are easier to write good then others.
Background Pony #C82B
@Applejack007
I always thought her boasting behavior was why she garnered so many fans in the first place. Well, that and her design too.
I always thought her boasting behavior was why she garnered so many fans in the first place. Well, that and her design too.
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