Canon (Oxford Dictionaries)
 

 
Dictionary.com
 

 
Canon (fiction) [wikipedia]
 

 

@Background Pony #29FC  
Come on, man, the rules of the thread require you to type out at least two paragraphs of prolix rationalization first if you’re going to use words incorrectly– get with the program.

The designs of the Heroes were provided by Hasbro so they are canon.  
Shadow Lock was an original design of Tony Fleecs. If he doesn’t appear in the finale, it’s a clear that original ideas of IDW aren’t canon.

@Daring-Do  
she does, but in a really clumsy way. the comic tried to equate the ponies fearing and even suspecting the dragons of that crime to racism, rather than them fearing dragons because they’re giant fire-breathing monsters that are largely aloof to the wants and needs of ponies and suspecting the dragons of that crime due to circumstantial evidence and a long list of justifying reasons. the comic seemed fine with spike hating the “evil non dragontown” dragons, so long as he didn’t judge “the good ones”.
 
honestly, i would actually suspect that comic is a big contributor to people labeling them as non-canon. i’m sure exceptions exist, but people seem to be universally against the portrayal of the dragons in that comic.

@Daring-Do  
I’m pretty sure there was a point made about how Spike was wrong  
Yeah, it confused me that so many people seemed to completely miss the difference between “unreliable narrator” and “author soapbox” there, until I remembered it was an IDW comic written by Satan Himself, Apparently Jeremy Whitley and thus was a foregone conclusion. Spike didn’t really have any reason to expect that other Dragons weren’t all jerks at that point, since he had a sample size of 1 for non-jerk Dragons and was raised by a people who haven’t exactly demonstrated an abundance of interspecies egalitarianism.

@DanielTepesKraus  
Didn’t Spike get called out by Mina for thinking like that? I’m pretty sure there was a point made about how Spike was wrong.

@DanielTepesKraus  
The phrase “the only good dragon” reminded me of the Doctor Who graphic novel “The Only Good Dalek.” Though the Daleks of the MLP world are pretty obviously Changelings.
 
And yeah, seems like they got put on rails again.

@Daring-Do  
okay, singular. but they do explicitly say in the comic that those are the only good dragons, which has been pretty firmly rejected by the main canon. heck, as i said here, dragons were all over the map in terms of morality.
 
and fair enough, because i certainly can’t blame anyone for wanting to shut up murrison. i’m just saying if they wanted the comics to be canon with the show they’d make it happen by either dictating what the comics were to write or by constructing the show around them (or both), and if the comics were canon they’d just up and say so.
 
though from what i’ve heard as of late the comics are under a lot closer scrutiny from hasbro since renewing their contract. if i understood it correctly apparently now they’re only allowed to use elements introduced in the show (no more moon furbies or elven deer, to name a few). whether this is an attempt to make them canon or an attempt at quality control (or both) is anyone’s guess.

@DanielTepesKraus  
Dragontown singular, in Fillydelphia. Not other cities to our knowledge.
 
Big Jim’s quote to Murrison was hardly an “insistence”. Jim was trying to dodge it as usual (“wait and see how we plan to use these characters”, etc.), but Murrison kept hounding him and Jim eventually said that to get Murrison off his back. EQD naturally immediately sprung on the tweet and left out all the leadup context. Literally, there was a whole back and forth of tweets before Jim finally made that comment.

@Background Pony #9E5B  
that may be, but look at it practically. nothing the comics establish is picked up in the main canon. that makes them not-canon with the show. even major things like luna being corrupted by the forces of shadow, all the “good” dragons living in ghettos in pony towns, the moon furbies, sombra being an “umbrum”, the list goes on and on. the shadow forces and the dragon towns have even been directly contradicted in the tantibus episode and gauntlet of fire.
 
the same way the ancient one was a celtic woman instead of an old asian man in the movie of dr. strange, the mandarin was just an actor in iron man (though they later retconned that due to fans being pissed), how wesker was saved by trent in the novelization of resident evil rather than birkin’s experimental virus, and how jon and liz were in love in the movie instead of it being a one-sided crush, etc etc. just because it happens in an official work does not make it canon.
 
all arguments about quality aside too, it’s a good thing they do this. “stuff happening between episodes” is a really bad thing, because it’s actually quite a dick thing to do to your fanbase. imagine you’re a guy who doesn’t or can’t read the comics sits down for season 8 and there’s these drain clogs floating around bragging about the time they brainwashed rarity, or sombra’s suddenly a good guy hanging around with whatever that mary-sue’s name was. that’s almost as frustrating as when a game you liked releases it’s sequel on a rival console you don’t own.
 
besides, some high up guy who plays no role whatsoever in any of the story lines (i bet he has zero direct involvement with any of the writing teams) can say what he likes, but when show staff dodges the question about them being canon and insists the show and comics will remain separate, and when the comic staff say they are but make it clear the show has no obligation or intent to actually follow them, it screams out loud “not canon”.
 
on another note, all these people insisting “wah that’s not what canon means”. you do know the joke behind using that term for continuity, and how it ended up being used the way it is now in fan circles, right? google the biblical definition of canon so i don’t have to explain the joke.  

 
i mean sheesh, you don’t see people crying every time someone misuses “meme”, “irony”, or “literally” outside of the context of their definition, so why does “canon” get special treatment?
 
@Background Pony #52C0  
(after having read this entire trainwreck of a comment thread)  
i’m going to assume you’re new here, or at least don’t use the comment or forum threads very much. welcome to the site.

@TexasUberAlles  
Yeah, no, if that’s what you think then you literally have zero comprehension of my posts. I’ve said a few rude things that were unnecessary, but my arguments have been pretty extensive and long-winded, and you’ve danced around actually engaging with any of them. I stopped using the convenient, concise word ‘canon’ and took the time to try and explain the arguments without it, just to appease you, but then you just switched to strawmanning me.
 
Just drop it. Everything that can feasibly be said here has already been said. I’m tired, and I’m sure you are too. There are other things to spend this energy on, and I don’t even think we’re on the same page here. I hope to be going to bed soon.

@Background Pony #52C0  
an ad hominem like that  
As opposed to the twenty or so you’ve thrown down so far? You still haven’t made a case beyond “you hate the comics so they don’t count and also literally the entire human race agrees with you”.

@TexasUberAlles  
Whatever you say buddy, an ad hominem like that isn’t gonna do much or convince anyone.
 
Let’s just go find something else to worry about, this conversation has gone on long enough. Have a nice day.

@Background Pony #52C0  
I think it’s pretty obvious by now that you’re the one who’s “not part of the reality, universe, or continuity” here.

@TexasUberAlles  
You literally don’t understand my argument at all, that’s a shame, though to be fair maybe you just completely ignored most of it. The point is not to say that it’s not technically an officially licensed MLP product, the point is to say that it’s not part of the reality, universe, or continuity of the MLP show (which is the canon, as us non-Texas plebeians refer to it as), and thus the characterization, stories, writing, settings and such in the comics aren’t either. The same way a fanfiction isn’t part of it. The stuff in the comics can never be anything more than personal headcanon, that’s just a clear and simple fact.
 
And it’s not a headcanon, it’s an obvious, indisputable fact, anyone who doesn’t see that is just plainly out of their mind, or is vastly misunderstanding the point of these arguments. The comics are technically an official product, yes, but they are a completely separate reality from the show, and nothing in the comics is part of the shows universe or continuity or however you want to word the damned arguments. Not the setting, which isn’t the same in both big and small ways, not the very different stories that take place in the comics, and not the characters either, which aren’t the same characters as the show versions, and thus the characterization from the comics is irrelevant and unapplicable to the show versions.
 
Now if you want to take some tidbit from the comics and headcanon it personally, that’s fine, but if someone were to disagree with you, their stance would be every bit as valid, because again, the comics are not part of the show, not part of the show’s reality, universe, or whatever, and thus the information/content in them is irrelevant (not that people can’t enjoy them, obviously) and has no authority whatsoever for anything other than matters about the comics themselves, or matters of pure headcanon.
 
I’ve literally brought up not a single headcanon of my own, and literally nobody has said that a headcanon from the comics is somehow inherently inferior as you claim, it’s just not a more factual or authoritative one than someone who doesn’t share it or has a contradicting headcanon. Taking a headcanon from the comics is no different or more valid than coming up with a headcanon from scratch (or from a fanfiction); one isn’t any different from the other, and neither holds greater authority or validity. Period, end of story. And nobody is saying the comics aren’t technically official, but that’s because people are not and never have been (in this fandom, anyway) using the word ‘canon’ as a synonym for official.
 
Now please, go find something else to worry about, and maybe I’ll do the same because god knows I get into too many arguments about stuff like this. I don’t think you’re even properly interpreting what I’m trying to get across here, so it’s hard to tell if we’re even on the same page. Literally nothing you’ve said has debunked a damn thing I’ve written here, so the idea that you’ve got it neatly figured out and packaged that you’re right and I’m wrong is silly at best. And I doubt you want to continue this conversation any more than I do, but hey, it certainly stretches those finger muscles, eh?

@Background Pony #52C0  
Dude, you’re trying– apparently with a straight face and absolutely no trace of irony– to claim that anyone who treats the IDW comics an an official MLP product is using _~headcanon~. You can run afoul of the post character limit a dozen times in a row if you want, as long as you’re arguing from a position of pure headcanon while accusing anyone who disagrees with your headcanon of being TEH REAL HEADCANNONZ you are never going to have a legitimate reality-based argument here; all you’re doing is a black is white, up is down, we have always been at war with Seaquestria, LALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU dance at this point. Keep on bein’ wrong and convincing yourself that everyone agrees with you no matter how many arguments you get over it if you want, but you’re still gonna be wrong.

As I said before I don’t actually care about what the specific word is, just what’s most convenient to get certain points across and what people will fully understand the best, which means this goes well beyond something that I or anyone else here came up with. But whatever you say buddy, the silly conversation about the wording used is over, there’s no point to it and it’s not as big of a deal as you make it to be either way. Nobody gives a damn about your little dictionary crusade. IDW is not ‘secondary canon’, regardless of what you call it otherwise, it is not part of the same continuity, universe. or whatever choice of words pleases you.
 
But let’s try to get over as many of my arguments as possible without using the convenient and concise word ‘canon’, and see how it goes.
 
First of all, it’s not about trying to say that there’s anything wrong with people enjoying the comics, it’s about saying they’re absolutely wrong if they attempt to force the irrelevant information inside on everyone else, none of which has any significance/relevance/applicability beyond discussions about the comics specifically, or the realm of headcanon. I doubt there are many people who care about others enjoying the comics, but what many people do have an issue with is when they’re debating something about the show, and someone brings up something from the comics as if it’s some sort of fact, when in reality it’s not far off from quoting a fanfiction for an argument, as far as it’s relevance or authority to the show or anything from the show goes.
 
Yeah, there’s no guarantee that the thing you decided to quote outright explicitly conflicts with anything or something like that, it may or may not, just like how a fanfiction may or may not explicitly conflict with anything, but at the end of the day it’s nothing more than your personal headcanon to bring up that information, because it’s not part of the MLP universe from the show and thus is not factual information, so to speak. It may make a nice headcanon in some peoples eyes, but it cannot ever be asserted as something that is factually true or that factually occurred, if that’s a good way to word it.
 
And it’s not just that people are free to ignore them, it’s that they are something clearly separate, and when it comes the show, ignoring them is the correct thing to do (once again though, people can take personal headcanons if they so wish), not just the thing to do if you don’t like them. They aren’t a valid or relevant source of information about the shows characters, setting, writing, etc. That is why I refer to them as equally relevant as fanfiction, it’s not some sort of attempt to mock people who enjoy them, or say that they’re exactly the same in every way or something, it’s pointing out the fact that information/writing/stories/characters in the comics and fanfiction are equivalent in relevance and authority to matters about the show, it’s characters, it’s setting, and so on, and if you brought up either in a debate about the show or something from the show with someone, they’d be right to disregard it as something that isn’t ‘factual’. (not that it couldn’t potentially be a valid personal headcanon, again)
 
And it goes far beyond just the comics not having any effect on the show, the reality here is that things (such as events, stories, the characterizations, the setting, and so on) from the comics are not part of the show’s reality, universe, or continuity and can never be anything more than potentially somebodies personal headcanon.
 
Well, there you go, I’ve attempted to explain various arguments without using the dreaded c-word that triggers you so much. Despite the massive wall of text, in some ways it still almost feels like it’s not as good as simply using the word everyone already understands like every other person in the damned fandom, but whatever, I don’t want to sit here even longer and keep expanding it until it somehow feels satisfactory. Hopefully you get the idea, sans the needless hand-wringing over the specific words I used in my arguments. Posting this wall of text every time I need to express these arguments is not viable though, so like just about everyone else in the MLP fandom, including other people in this thread (including the ones I was arguing with), I’ll continue to use the word ‘canon’, because it gets the point across for the most part. Sorry.

sure are a lot of people who hate language up in here
 
@Background Pony #52C0  
because again, everyone and their mother uses canon to describe the things we’ve been arguing about  
FYI, an argument based on an assertion that your opinion is universally held is an argument you lose the first time someone disagrees with it, and reality is somewhat notorious for not giving a damn about how popular opinions are.
 
@Background Human  
The original usage of ‘‘canon’’ with respect to a fictional universe  
Actually I’m pretty sure that was Marcion of Sinope, but that’s a different argument; if you want to get real about originalism, the earliest efforts to define a strictly authoritative collection of franchised works by multiple authors were probably about the Tanakh, and even that far back they understood the basic concept of secondary canon, which is what kicks the legs out from under the bullshit motives of the “I hate the comics so I’ll call them _~non-canon~ because that way I’m objectively right and anyone who likes the comics is objectively wrong” people. Secondary canon means you are absolutely free to ignore it if it pisses you off that much, and you’re not losing anything from the primary canon. All of this ridiculousness remains, as ever, completely unnecessary; the fandom is chock-a-block full of people who dislike the comics and so just… ignore them because they don’t have any significant effect on the show, which makes it blatantly obvious that the people still bitching about _~non-canon~ are not arguing in good faith, they’re just looking for a way to insist that something they dislike isn’t real and doesn’t count.

@TexasUberAlles  
@TexasUberAlles  
@TexasUberAlles  
The original usage of “canon” with respect to a fictional universe specifically allowed for official but non-canonical works. From the very beginning, “canon” has referred to a determination of the fandom rather than the official licensor. As it happens, there is a perfectly good word to describe official works, regardless of their canonical status: to wit, “official”.

@Background Pony #9E5B  
Well, you’re right that this conversation is a demoralizing waste of time, but you haven’t debunked a damn thing. You’ve repeatedly attempted to twist Hasbro’s marketing statements to mean something they clearly don’t, in a futile attempt to claim the comics are canon, but it’s just not the case. The comics are not canon, and Hasbro has never said as such, you are taking the things in the link you provided wildly out of context and misinterpreting it, that much is obvious.
 
And as far as Texas, yeah, I’m sure that based on what he’s argued, he’d probably not agree with you. He specifically seemed to agree that the comics are not part of the same continuity/universe. I don’t think he exactly disagreed with much of what I was saying, just the choice of words I used, because he feels it’s not being used properly. Which I don’t agree with, because again, everyone and their mother uses canon to describe the things we’ve been arguing about. But again, it just amounts to pedantry about the linguistics of it, not a huge deal I think.
 
But whatever, this conversation is again, a waste of time, and nothing I say will convince you, so have a nice day. I’m tired too.

@Background Pony #52C0  
You keep on using the same lines.  
“Everyone is doing it.” Which is never ever ever a solid argument. I don’t care if everyone is calling a dog a cat, dogs are not cats and people do call them that use the word wrong.  
“the comics aren’t canon because I don’t want them to”. That’s not even an argument. That’s just your headcanon. Hasbro disagrees with you. End of the line.
 
I agree with Texas in that the comics are canon.  
I don’t know what he means with continuity since that is not properly defined in this context, so I have nothing to say about that. If he means that the comics take place on another pony ^planet or so, then Hasbro disagrees.
 
But this discussion is really becoming an exercise in futility.  
I debunk your arguments based on what Hasbro has stated and on the correct meaning of words.  
You disregard my arguments based on “arguments” which are summarized and debunked at the top of this comment.  
This will lead to nothing. You can lead a Little Pony to the water, but you can’t make it drink.  
I’m out.  
I just hope that people who go over these posts will see what Hasbro has said and realize that the position of “comics aren’t canon” is contradicted by Hasbro themselves.  
For those people I’ll link the Hasbro page one more time and then I’m off.  
www dot licensemag dot com/license-global/hasbro-magic-branded-play  
Basically, comics and all the rest happen in between episodes. Word of God.
 
Bye all, have a nice day.

@soundtea  
I’m behind on my comics and haven’t read that on yet, but isn’t “temporary stupidity” a thing in the show too?  
Sometimes the Princesses just can’t seem to handle anything.  
Sometimes the entire village is mean and ill willed . (putting your hoof down)  
Sometimes the most down to earth and balanced pony is a complete retard who can’t think straight (AJ in AJ’s day off)  
Sometimes the most intelligent pony just cast a super secret and special spell “just to see what it does” (Twi in MMC)  
And so on.  
Characterization also seems to vary from episode to episode. That’s natural of course, it’s because there are so many writers. It happens in all shows, nothing I hold against MLP. You could interpret it as a pony having a bad day or so.

@Background Pony #9E5B  
You’re out of your mind. Comparing the usage of the word canon that everyone and their mother including you has been using to flat earthers is completely absurd. Either way, enough about linguistics. Besides, if you’re agreeing with Texas, then you must be contradicting yourself, considering he clearly said that the comics are not part of the same continuity or universe.
 
And Hasbro didn’t hire a third party company, the third party company had a product they wanted to sell and applied for a license. Either way, doesn’t really matter because the end result is the same, the comics are not canon, they are a separate product with a separate universe, continuity, and so on, even Texas seems to agree with that much. And most likely Brenda is referring to DHX, not Hasbro, as the vast majority of characters are designed by the character designers at DHX, as that’s their job, not Hasbro’s. That’s certainly where the character designs came from either way.
 
And yes, they absolutely are equivalent to fanfiction in many ways (not all, of course, but the most important ways for sure), particularly their actual relevance to the show or anything from the show. The comics being licensed does not make them canon, no matter how many times you repeat it. All it means is that they have permission to sell a product. And it’s not a headcanon that the comics are non-canon, it’s a fact, that you or nobody else cannot deny, because what’s canon and what’s not is not a matter of headcanon. On the other hand, stuff from the comics can be adopted as headcanon if someone so chooses, but they’ll be nothing more than that; personal headcanon, as the comics are factually non-canon, end of story.

@soundtea
 
A treaty she thought they knew about, and took extra umbrage when told that they might not.
 
And again we don’t really know what Ember is like as a ruler or in diplomacy because we haven’t seen how she interacts with any non-dragons besides like 4 lines with Twilight. The catalyst for the conflict was dumb, but there’s not enough character for Ember to say her reaction to it was OOC.

@Dustcan  
A broken treaty over a minor thing that nobody knew about. The comic made her utterly stupid and unreasonable just to add some padding. The comics have a bad tendancy to make everyone stupid just to get a plot rolling. Ember is pretty much the last dragon you’d expect to launch an unprovoked bombing of a village. If anyone had a shred of sense she’d at least send a warning, especially since she’s alright with ponies and likely wouldnt want them caught in the crossfire.
 
Not to mention they were completely gearing up for killing in that comic. The entire thing seems to give a lobotomy to Ember just to get the comic going. The show doesnt delve into the Idiot Ball that hard, especially in recent episodes. I fully expect the show to flat out ignore it.