Viewing last 25 versions of comment by LegatusFlagrans on image #1518166

"[@Minus":](/1518166#comment_6544753
)  
If any of what you've said here is true, then the _*vast majority_* of non-Evangelical Christians are "bad" Christians. And I can statistically verify it, too.

[bq="
 

> Minus"]Many athiests have faith. Faith is almost universally a human trait. Religion is taking that faith and twisting it into THEIR idea, preventing it from being personal. +__Believing in God+__ does not make you a Christian, and neither does +__believing in Jesus+__. Otherwise I’m a Christian. But I’m not, I’m an athiest with faith. A faithiest.[/bq]
You realize you've literally just said here that you're _*+**__not+*__*** an atheist. If you believe in _***anything*_** that could be construed as God, personal or impersonal, being or force, _*you are not an atheist_*, and if you believe in the teachings of Christ Jesus, then in all technicality, _*you are a **Christian*_**, regardless of denomination or lack thereof. Plain and simple. From what I can gather, you just dislike organized religion as it is right now, and I can understand that if you grew up among a lot of fundie conservatives. You probably view God much in the same way I do, as an impersonal force, "[or perhaps a personification of reality and the natural world":](http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2010) (The person who wrote this linked article, btw, is a _*Protestant Christian **Minister*_** whose book has been critically acclaimed by _*clergy of **many** faiths_*). I'm kind of caught between the two. Speaking of which, "[more than a +__quarter+__ of Christians in the US see God as impersonal rather than a person":](http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/u-s-public-becoming-less-religious/pf-2015-11-03_rls_ii-27/), including nearly a +__third+__ of Catholics, the denomination I choose to identify with.
[bq="Minus"]  

> I already said I know many Christians who do not follow the Bible, ones who find the things within nothing less than barbaric. I know this. But here’s the thing. You’re a bad christian if you don’t follow the bible. Real Christians hate these types. These Christian posers. But I love them, since they’re with me. Believers in humanity, athiests.[/bq]
Well, I hate to break it to you here, but apparently only a +__quarter+__ of American Christians are "good" Christians, "[considering nearly +__75%+__ believe it is _***not*_** the literal word of God.":](http://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx) Being a good Christian has _*never_* meant literally following the word of the Bible to the letter, unless you're part of the fundamentalist minority. The Bible was never meant to be a literal account of history or science or whatever, it was meant to be interpreted, picked apart to find the hidden messages within, and viewed in a historical context. _*That's what I learned_* when I was coming into the faith, and as such I'm thankful to have entered the faith through a more progressive university parish.
[bq="Minus"]  

> I never said there was no god of any sort. I said the Christian God is provably false. Other Gods though? It’ll take me a while to disprove the 1000s of them. Or maybe find the real ones among them. But they aren’t relevant to this. Yahweh is not real was what I said and meant, nothing else or more. And you agree with me.

> If God is something else, not a being but a force, then this God has gone far from being the Abrahamic one. Now you’re crossing over into other religions, or general faiths. I am impressed you can even have this belief in such a strict enviroment.[/bq]
As I said before, I believe God should not be seen as a being, and therefore not "existing", in the sense of the word, but that doesn't make him any less "real" if you see him in an impersonal pantheistic sense, because then, God "is" reality and the natural world itself. This is an idea that even prominent _*Christian **theologians*_** are promoting, so I wouldn't imagine it being completely out of place within Christianity; you'd be surprised how flexible Catholic dogma actually is, if you read it. "[If you mean the God of _*literalist fundamentalism_*, the supernatural cosmic terrorist who literally and attestably performs unnatural acts of unspeakable horror upon the denizens of Earth, that's of utmost certainty.":](http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/1701) But understand that it is literally only a _***minority*_** of Christians who believe this, as I previously pointed out - they're not the "bad Christians", the fundies are for taking their faith and smashing it against the wall.


 
Also as I said before, one of the core principles of the Catholic faith is the _*primacy of the individual conscience_*, a teaching originating from St. Thomas Aquinas, who was probably the single most influential thinker of medieval Europe. In his words, "Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that +__he who acts against his conscience always sins+__". Well, in believing what I personally feel I should, I am exercising my informed conscience, and thus doing perhaps the most Catholic thing I can do.
[bq="Minus"]  

> Being a Christian is literally about following the bible and following their moral codes. Following Jesus and spreading love and justice? That’s not a Christian thing at all. I see it everywhere, everyday. That’s a human thing.[/bq]
You've been to the wrong sorts of churches if you sincerely believe that nonsense. And if that's the case, "[The majority of non-Evangelical American Christians should probably be immediately excommunicated":](http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/), considering that majority supports same-sex marriage as a right. "[Or what about the overwhelming _***global*_** majority of Catholics who support reproductive freedoms?":](https://thinkprogress.org/global-poll-finds-most-catholics-actually-support-birth-control-and-abortion-rights-7beafb7944e9/) A true Christian is _*not_* measured by how well he adheres to the dictations of the hierarchy of the Church, and following teachings when they are oppressive and unjust in fact is _*exactly_* what Christ taught _***not*_** to do. He fought _*against_* the Jewish religious establishment, _*against_* the Pharisees, and did it for the greater good of the people around him. So, yes, it _***is*_** a Christian thing to protect the innocent and help the lowly and love unconditionally _***because*_** it is a human thing. Christ was a _*humanist_*, Christ was a _*liberal_*, and to follow after him as such is the most Christian thing I can conceive.
[bq="Minus"]  

> I just outed you as a closet athiest. I feel what I’m doing is fully worth it. Now I’ve come away from this knowing you’re someone I could enjoy talking about faith with. You’re open minded and kind. This is progress. The problem only begins when you decide to join a faction that excludes others. Unlike religion, Athiesm will never demand that you be a certain sexuality or race or anything of the sort to join. There are no barriers of devision here. Enjoy being free![/bq]
Call me what you will, but I sincerely believe that my faith and my beliefs are as Christian as they can be, and so do vast swathes of other fellow liberal/progressive Christians - laity, clergy, and theologians alike. I've learned what elements of my religion are inconsistent when put in a literal sense, and learned how to reconcile them with my faith and with reality, and I believe that all people of all faiths should do the same. As such, I remain, because I believe that I and the many other like-minded people of the faith can work as a force of change, to bring the Church back to _*real_* Christian principles - to being more open-minded and, most of all, more accepting, as Christ accepted the lowest of low.


 
I understand your qualms with religion, _*believe me_*, I do; I spent most of my early life as an apatheist. I had never gone to mass, I didn't give two shits about God or Jesus or any element of faith whatsoever. I saw religion the same way you did, as causing more harm than good. But before I graduated high school, I started to see it in a new light,
 
that I was only seeing the bad, and missing all the good that religion and faith had the potential to bring, if used the right way; that there was no one way to believe in God, and I could follow the faith in a way that not only allowed for scientific reason and love, but even encouraged it. That's what made me change my mind; that's what led me to convert - not mandate, not pressure, not unreasonable superstition, but _***love*_**. That is what _***real*_** Christianity is about, and that is what I will believe and fight for until my dying day, and what I hope that mainstream Christianity, with the help of those like-minded faithful, will again become.


 
What I would say is, don't let the puffed up, prudish, fundie conservatives drive you away from associating with religion altogether. If, as you say, you _*truly_* believe in the teachings of Christ, and if you _*truly_* think there is something, _*even reality itself_*, you could refer to as God, then _*please_*, for your own sake, don't be ashamed to call yourself what you are:


 
A +__**Christian*+*__. An atypical one like me, but a Christian nonetheless.

"@Minus":/1518166#comment_6544753
If any of what you've said here is true, then the _vast majority_ of non-Evangelical Christians are "bad" Christians. And I can statistically verify it, too.

[bq="Minus"]Many athiests have faith. Faith is almost universally a human trait. Religion is taking that faith and twisting it into THEIR idea, preventing it from being personal. +Believing in God+ does not make you a Christian, and neither does +believing in Jesus+. Otherwise I’m a Christian. But I’m not, I’m an athiest with faith. A faithiest.[/bq] You realize you've literally just said here that you're _*+not+*_ an atheist. If you believe in _*anything*_ that could be construed as God, personal or impersonal, being or force, _you are not an atheist_, and if you believe in the teachings of Christ Jesus, then in all technicality, _you are a *Christian*_, regardless of denomination or lack thereof. Plain and simple. From what I can gather, you just dislike organized religion as it is right now, and I can understand that if you grew up among a lot of fundie conservatives. You probably view God much in the same way I do, as an impersonal force, "or perhaps a personification of reality and the natural world":http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2010 (The person who wrote this linked article, btw, is a _Protestant Christian *Minister*_ whose book has been critically acclaimed by _clergy of *many* faiths_). I'm kind of caught between the two. Speaking of which, "more than a +quarter+ of Christians in the US see God as impersonal rather than a person":http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/u-s-public-becoming-less-religious/pf-2015-11-03_rls_ii-27/, including nearly a +third+ of Catholics, the denomination I choose to identify with.
[bq="Minus"]I already said I know many Christians who do not follow the Bible, ones who find the things within nothing less than barbaric. I know this. But here’s the thing. You’re a bad christian if you don’t follow the bible. Real Christians hate these types. These Christian posers. But I love them, since they’re with me. Believers in humanity, athiests.[/bq] Well, I hate to break it to you here, but apparently only a +quarter+ of American Christians are "good" Christians, "considering nearly +75%+ believe it is _*not*_ the literal word of God.":http://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx Being a good Christian has _never_ meant literally following the word of the Bible to the letter, unless you're part of the fundamentalist minority. The Bible was never meant to be a literal account of history or science or whatever, it was meant to be interpreted, picked apart to find the hidden messages within, and viewed in a historical context. _That's what I wleas taughtrned_ when I was coming into the faith, and as such I'm thankful to have beentered the faith throught in a more progressive university parish.
[bq="Minus"]I never said there was no god of any sort. I said the Christian God is provably false. Other Gods though? It’ll take me a while to disprove the 1000s of them. Or maybe find the real ones among them. But they aren’t relevant to this. Yahweh is not real was what I said and meant, nothing else or more. And you agree with me.
If God is something else, not a being but a force, then this God has gone far from being the Abrahamic one. Now you’re crossing over into other religions, or general faiths. I am impressed you can even have this belief in such a strict enviroment.[/bq] As I said before, I believe God should not be seen as a being, and therefore not "existing", in the sense of the word, but that doesn't make him any less "real" if you see him in an impersonal pantheistic sense, because then, God "is" reality and the natural world itself. This is an idea that even prominent _Christian *theologians*_ are promoting, so I wouldn't imagine it being completely out of place within Christianity; you'd be surprised how flexible Catholic dogma actually is, if you read it. "If you mean the God of _literalist fundamentalism_, the supernatural cosmic terrorist who literally and attestably performs unnatural acts of unspeakable horror upon the denizens of Earth, that's of utmost certainty.":http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/1701 But understand that it is literally only a _*minority*_ of Christians who believe this, as I previously pointed out - they're not the "bad Christians", the fundies are for taking their faith and smashing it against the wall.

Also as I said before, one of the core principles of the Catholic faith is the _primacy of the individual conscience_, a teaching originating from St. Thomas Aquinas, who was probably the single most influential thinker of medieval Europe. In his words, "Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that +he who acts against his conscience always sins+". Well, in believing what I personally feel I should, I am exercising my informed conscience, and thus doing perhaps the most Catholic thing I can do.
[bq="Minus"]Being a Christian is literally about following the bible and following their moral codes. Following Jesus and spreading love and justice? That’s not a Christian thing at all. I see it everywhere, everyday. That’s a human thing.[/bq] You've been to the wrong sorts of churches if you sincerely believe that nonsense. And if that's the case, "The majority of non-Evangelical American Christians should probably be immediately excommunicated":http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/, considering that majority supports same-sex marriage as a right. "Or what about the overwhelming _*global*_ majority of Catholics who support reproductive freedoms?":https://thinkprogress.org/global-poll-finds-most-catholics-actually-support-birth-control-and-abortion-rights-7beafb7944e9/ A true Christian is _not_ measured by how well he adheres to the dictations of the hierarchy of the Church, and following teachings when they are oppressive and unjust in fact is _exactly_ what Christ taught _*not*_ to do. He fought _against_ the Jewish religious establishment, _against_ the Pharisees, and did it for the greater good of the people around him. So, yes, it _*is*_ a Christian thing to protect the innocent and help the lowly and love unconditionally _*because*_ it is a human thing. Christ was a _humanist_, Christ was a _liberal_, and to follow after him as such is the most Christian thing I can conceive.
[bq="Minus"]I just outed you as a closet athiest. I feel what I’m doing is fully worth it. Now I’ve come away from this knowing you’re someone I could enjoy talking about faith with. You’re open minded and kind. This is progress. The problem only begins when you decide to join a faction that excludes others. Unlike religion, Athiesm will never demand that you be a certain sexuality or race or anything of the sort to join. There are no barriers of devision here. Enjoy being free![/bq] Call me what you will, but I sincerely believe that my faith and my beliefs are as Christian as they can be, and so do vast swathes of other fellow liberal/progressive Christians - laity, clergy, and theologians alike. I've learned what elements of my religion are inconsistent when put in a literal sense, and learned how to reconcile them with my faith and with reality, and I believe that all people of all faiths should do the same. As such, I remain, because I believe that I and the many other like-minded people of the faith can work as a force of change, to bring the Church back to _real_ Christian principles - to being more open-minded and, most of all, more accepting, as Christ accepted the lowest of low.

I understand your qualms with religion, _believe me_, I do; I spent most of my early life as an apatheist. I had never gone to mass, I didn't give two shits about God or Jesus or any element of faith whatsoever. I saw religion the same way you did, as causing more harm than good. But before I graduated high school, I started to see it in a new light,
that I was only seeing the bad, and missing all the good that religion and faith had the potential to bring, if used the right way; that there was no one way to believe in God, and I could follow the faith in a way that not only allowed for scientific reason and love, but even encouraged it. That's what made me change my mind; that's what led me to convert - not mandate, not pressure, not unreasonable superstition, but _*love*_. That is what _*real*_ Christianity is about, and that is what I will believe and fight for until my dying day, and what I hope that mainstream Christianity, with the help of those like-minded faithful, will again become.

What I would say is, don't let the puffed up, prudish, fundie conservatives drive you away from associating with religion altogether. If, as you say, you _truly_ believe in the teachings of Christ, and if you _truly_ think there is something, _even reality itself_, you could refer to as God, then _please_, for your own sake, don't be ashamed to call yourself what you are:

A +*Christian*+. An atypical one like me, but a Christian nonetheless.

"@Minus":/1518166#comment_6544753
If any of what you've said here is true, then the _vast majority_ of non-Evangelical Christians are "bad" Christians. And I can statistically verify it, too.

[bq="Minus"]Many athiests have faith. Faith is almost universally a human trait. Religion is taking that faith and twisting it into THEIR idea, preventing it from being personal. +Believing in God+ does not make you a Christian, and neither does +believing in Jesus+. Otherwise I’m a Christian. But I’m not, I’m an athiest with faith. A faithiest.[/bq] You realize you've literally just said here that you're _*+not+*_ an atheist. If you believe in _*anything*_ that could be construed as God, personal or impersonal, being or force, _you are not an atheist_, and if you believe in the teachings of Christ Jesus, then in all technicality, _you are a *Christian*_, regardless of denomination or lack thereof. Plain and simple. From what I can gather, you just dislike organized religion as it is right now, and I can understand that if you grew up among a lot of fundie conservatives. You probably view God much in the same way I do, as an impersonal force, "or perhaps a personification of reality and the natural world":http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2010 (The person who wrote this linked article, btw, is a _Protestant Christian *Minister*_ whose book has been critically acclaimed by _clergy of *many* faiths_). I'm kind of caught between the two. Speaking of which, "more than a +quarter+ of Christians in the US see God as impersonal rather than a person":http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/u-s-public-becoming-less-religious/pf-2015-11-03_rls_ii-27/, including nearly a +third+ of Catholics, the denomination I choose to identify with.
[bq="Minus"]I already said I know many Christians who do not follow the Bible, ones who find the things within nothing less than barbaric. I know this. But here’s the thing. You’re a bad christian if you don’t follow the bible. Real Christians hate these types. These Christian posers. But I love them, since they’re with me. Believers in humanity, athiests.[/bq] Well, I hate to break it to you here, but apparently only a +quarter+ of American Christians are "good" Christians, "considering nearly +75%+ believe it is _*not*_ the literal word of God.":http://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/record-few-americans-believe-bible-literal-word-god.aspx Being a good Christian has _never_ meant literally following the word of the Bible to the letter, unless you're part of the fundamentalist minority. The Bible was never meant to be a literal account of history or science or whatever, it was meant to be interpreted, picked apart to find the hidden messages within, and viewed in a historical context. _That's what I was taught_ when I was coming into the faith, and as such I'm thankful to have been taught in a more progressive university parish.
[bq="Minus"]I never said there was no god of any sort. I said the Christian God is provably false. Other Gods though? It’ll take me a while to disprove the 1000s of them. Or maybe find the real ones among them. But they aren’t relevant to this. Yahweh is not real was what I said and meant, nothing else or more. And you agree with me.
If God is something else, not a being but a force, then this God has gone far from being the Abrahamic one. Now you’re crossing over into other religions, or general faiths. I am impressed you can even have this belief in such a strict enviroment.[/bq] As I said before, I believe God should not be seen as a being, and therefore not "existing", in the sense of the word, but that doesn't make him any less "real" if you see him in an impersonal pantheistic sense, because then, God "is" reality and the natural world itself. This is an idea that even prominent _Christian *theologians*_ are promoting, so I wouldn't imagine it being completely out of place within Christianity; you'd be surprised how flexible Catholic dogma actually is, if you read it. "If you mean the God of _literalist fundamentalism_, the supernatural cosmic terrorist who literally and attestably performs unnatural acts of unspeakable horror upon the denizens of Earth, that's of utmost certainty.":http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/1701 But understand that it is literally only a _*minority*_ of Christians who believe this, as I previously pointed out - they're not the "bad Christians", the fundies are for taking their faith and smashing it against the wall.

Also as I said before, one of the core principles of the Catholic faith is the _primacy of the individual conscience_, a teaching originating from St. Thomas Aquinas, who was probably the single most influential thinker of medieval Europe. In his words, "Every judgement of conscience, be it right or wrong, be it about things evil in themselves or morally indifferent, is obligatory, in such wise that +he who acts against his conscience always sins+". Well, in believing what I personally feel I should, I am exercising my informed conscience, and thus doing perhaps the most Catholic thing I can do.
[bq="Minus"]Being a Christian is literally about following the bible and following their moral codes. Following Jesus and spreading love and justice? That’s not a Christian thing at all. I see it everywhere, everyday. That’s a human thing.[/bq] You've been to the wrong sorts of churches if you sincerely believe that nonsense. And if that's the case, "The majority of non-Evangelical American Christians should probably be immediately excommunicated":http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/, considering that majority supports same-sex marriage as a right. "Or what about the overwhelming _*global*_ majority of Catholics who support reproductive freedoms?":https://thinkprogress.org/global-poll-finds-most-catholics-actually-support-birth-control-and-abortion-rights-7beafb7944e9/ A true Christian is _not_ measured by how well he adheres to the dictations of the hierarchy of the Church, and following teachings when they are oppressive and unjust in fact is _exactly_ what Christ taught _*not*_ to do. He fought _against_ the Jewish religious establishment, _against_ the Pharisees, and did it for the greater good of the people around him. So, yes, it _*is*_ a Christian thing to protect the innocent and help the lowly and love unconditionally _*because*_ it is a human thing. Christ was a _humanist_, Christ was a _liberal_, and to follow after him as such is the most Christian thing I can conceive.
[bq="Minus"]I just outed you as a closet athiest. I feel what I’m doing is fully worth it. Now I’ve come away from this knowing you’re someone I could enjoy talking about faith with. You’re open minded and kind. This is progress. The problem only begins when you decide to join a faction that excludes others. Unlike religion, Athiesm will never demand that you be a certain sexuality or race or anything of the sort to join. There are no barriers of devision here. Enjoy being free![/bq] Call me what you will, but I sincerely believe that my faith and my beliefs are as Christian as they can be, and so do vast swathes of other fellow liberal/progressive Christians - laity, clergy, and theologians alike. I've learned what elements of my religion are inconsistent when put in a literal sense, and learned how to reconcile them with my faith and with reality, and I believe that all people of all faiths should do the same. As such, I remain, because I believe that I and the many other like-minded people of the faith can work as a force of change, to bring the Church back to _real_ Christian principles - to being more open-minded and, most of all, more accepting, as Christ accepted the lowest of low.

I understand your qualms with religion, _believe me_, I do; I spent most of my early life as an apatheist. I had never gone to mass, I didn't give two shits about God or Jesus or any element of faith whatsoever. I saw religion the same way you did, as causing more harm than good. But before I graduated high school, I started to see it in a new light,
that I was only seeing the bad, and missing all the good that religion and faith had the potential to bring, if used the right way; that there was no one way to believe in God, and I could follow the faith in a way that not only allowed for scientific reason and love, but even encouraged it. That's what made me change my mind; that's what led me to convert - not mandate, not pressure, not unreasonable superstition, but _*love*_. That is what _*real*_ Christianity is about, and that is what I will believe and fight for until my dying day, and what I hope that mainstream Christianity, with the help of those like-minded faithful, will again become.

What I would say is, don't let the puffed up, prudish, fundie conservatives drive you away from associating with religion altogether. If, as you say, you _truly_ believe in the teachings of Christ, and if you _truly_ think there is something, _even reality itself_, you could refer to as God, then _please_, for your own sake, don't be ashamed to call yourself what you are:

A +*Christian*+. An atypical one like me, but a Christian nonetheless.