Background Pony #D60B
part 3
" (still Supes here obviously, forgot to uncheck the anonymity checkmark)
[@BackgroundLoL":](/1630149#comment_6814518
)
Anyway, back to Sunset.
[bq]
> You did watch Friendship Games, yet you state such things. She had there visibly problems as leader, and didn’t know what to do without Twilight’s advice. Sunset visibly struggled with her decision during the movie, acted completely lost at one point.[/bq]
I'm gonna bring up what I just wrote about Sunset's "struggles" being relevant to the movies. Yes, she did have inner troubles in RR and FG. But how did they impact the ultimate resolution of either movie? How did Sunset's mild discomfort at not being 100% accepted into the Rainbooms group affect her actions at the end? I'll tell you how: if she hadn't been an outsider, there is a chance she would've argued with the others instead of being in the position to talk sense into them. But that's incredibly flimsy. Ultimately, no problems she had to face in either movie prior to the very resolution mattered in any way to the rest of the plot. Her struggles were not driving the plot, if anything, in both cases the plot was driven forward by Twilights (different ones).
Maybe "completely smooth" isn't the right description, but it was the same as, say, if Fluttershy had a subplot about being too shy to participate during "A Canterlot Wedding" or something. Again, don't just claim I'm twisting the facts, rather, if you can, describe how you think Sunset's inner struggles were essentials to either RR's or FG's resolutions or storylines and how they weren't almost completely isolated aspects of them. If you claim I'm moving the goalposts, that would be a fair accusation, but I guess you'd just have to believe me that I worded something poorly in a long-ass comment and I meant to say Sunset's journey through the movies was unimpactful rather than easy for her.
[bq]
> Again, if anything this is your own biased headcanon, and further material, especially from A Friendship to Remember, confirms Sunset was more innocent originally, showing the picture was at least quite possibly depicting Sunset before she became worse.[/bq]
I'm not taking "A Friendship to Remember" into consideration because such key parts of characterization should not be delegated to books. I'll consider whatever "Forgotten Friendship" shows us when it comes out. Despite what you might believe, I'm looking forward to it, even if I don't expect it to achieve much. You can never be sure and, again, despite how hard it might be for you to believe, it's not like I really want to not enjoy Sunset's character considering how much I enjoyed everything else about the movies. I just can't.
Anyway. Remember what Celestia said about Sunset. "When she didn't get what she wanted as quickly as she liked, she turned cruel and dishonest", unless I'm mistaken. I believe it was more or less that exact wording. Now does that honestly sound like someone who would turn completely innocent for no apparent reason? Does it sound like someone who, upon being stranded in an unfamiliar world, would become a nice person? Even though Sunset was never truly evil, she was still a nasty piece of work. She wanted power she thought she deserved, and she wanted revenge on Celestia. Do you really, honestly believe THAT Sunset would've turned into a genuinely sociable, pleasant person - enough to win the title of the crown without any manipulation or pretense? Does it REALLY seem more likely to you than the idea that she remained power-hungry and began manipulating people right off the bat, gradually dropping her act as her power in the school grew? If so, I don't even know what to say, because that, to me, would be complete craziness.
Okay, moving on to Starlight.
[bq]
> Hahaha, Starlight wasn’t selfish or egoistical ? Starlight whole motivation was revealed as at least somewhat selfish and egoistical.[/bq]
If anyone's twisting facts and lying in this conversation, it would be you with this here statement. Starlight's original motive was trying to bring true friendship to everyone the only way she thought it was truly possible: by making everyone similar enough so they'd never fight or fall apart. Twisted? Yes. Delusional? Yes. Selfish? Absolutely not. Later, her motive was revenge. Revenge isn't the same level of selfish so much as an impulse to seek fairness after a perceived slight. Unlike her original driving force, this wasn't altruism corrupted by a deeply broken understanding of the world, it was her trying to exact what she thought was justice. She didn't want power for power's sake, unlike Sunset, she didn't want revenge on someone who denied her something she thought was owed to her, it was revenge on someone who, she thought, ruined her attempt to make the world better. Ultimately revenge is still for personal satisfaction, true, but the level of selfishness is negligible, especially compared to Sunset, because Sunset didn't JUST want revenge, and had a different, much more selfish reason for revenge.
[bq]
> She wasn’t thinking at all about others, and how many she harmed (including pretty certainly Sunsburst and her parents).[/bq]
And this is more "twisting facts and lying". She wasn't thinking about others being harmed because she was certain nobody else would be harmed. Prior to seeing the wasteland version of the future, she'd never seen any of the resulting futures. She thought the consequences of her actions would be limited to breaking up Twilight's friendships and denying her friends their cutie-marks. If you can't believe she didn't know about Twilight's exploits due to her remote location, well, she addressed specifically that herself. She did not believe that any friendship could be so important, "even Princess Twilight's". If she had known about the consequences, she would not have gone through with it - demonstrated further by how seeing the consequences was the first step to her calming down. So no, she did not knowingly condemn anyone to deaths and suffering, she only condemned the mane 6 to unhappiness, as far as she knew.
[bq]
> when Starlight has a sudden change of personality/characterization, or inconsistency in characterization you make up excuses for it[/bq]
[bq]
> At the very least, you again didn’t address my point on how Starlight’s change looked odd, despite your earlier statements…[/bq]
There you have it, I once again explained why I think Starlight's change of attitude is different from Sunset's and why it didn't seem odd. Beyond that, there's nothing to address or prove here because you aren't actually making an argument. You state your opinion that it might've looked odd, I say that I disagree and no, it didn't look odd. I explain why, you ignore the vast differences between the two characters and continue claiming I should think the same of both of them as if they're identically handled.
[bq]
> Funny you accuse Sunset of being a neutered Twilight from season 1-2, as many see so Starlight. Again, showing you behave exactly like Starlight’s haters, only directed at Sunset.[/bq]
Just because I criticize something and haters criticize something, doesn't make me behave exactly like the haters. Just because your positive views of Sunset are so deeply entrenched you make things up when it doesn't hold up, ignore arguments to the contrary, consider your opinions prooven and facts and mine "twisting the facts and lying", doesn't mean you have any more claim at being right than I do. From how I see things, you're a vastly worse Sunset fanboy than I am a Starlight fanboy.
[bq]
> I mean, as I mentioned similarly before, using your logic, one could say %%%%~~~~~
~
> %snip~
%
> Again, I’m using your logic above, just applied to Starlight and your own behavior.[/bq]
No. You aren't using "my logic", because I'm not using logic when I'm stating an opinion. And what logic I do use, you completely ignore. What you're doing is bringing up a collection of ridiculous and outright wrong claims about Starlight that you don't even agree with yourself, and trying to equate them to an opinion that you disagree with and seemingly can't even comprehend. Just because you don't understand why I think what I think of Sunset and Starlight (separately and comparatively), doesn't mean you get to claim I'm just spouting nonsense. And you say discussions with ME are impossible? Have you looked at your own comments?
"
[@BackgroundLoL
Anyway, back to Sunset.
[bq]
> You did watch Friendship Games, yet you state such things. She had there visibly problems as leader, and didn’t know what to do without Twilight’s advice. Sunset visibly struggled with her decision during the movie, acted completely lost at one point.
I'm gonna bring up what I just wrote about Sunset's "struggles" being relevant to the movies. Yes, she did have inner troubles in RR and FG. But how did they impact the ultimate resolution of either movie? How did Sunset's mild discomfort at not being 100% accepted into the Rainbooms group affect her actions at the end? I'll tell you how: if she hadn't been an outsider, there is a chance she would've argued with the others instead of being in the position to talk sense into them. But that's incredibly flimsy. Ultimately, no problems she had to face in either movie prior to the very resolution mattered in any way to the rest of the plot. Her struggles were not driving the plot, if anything, in both cases the plot was driven forward by Twilights (different ones).
Maybe "completely smooth" isn't the right description, but it was the same as, say, if Fluttershy had a subplot about being too shy to participate during "A Canterlot Wedding" or something. Again, don't just claim I'm twisting the facts, rather, if you can, describe how you think Sunset's inner struggles were essentials to either RR's or FG's resolutions or storylines and how they weren't almost completely isolated aspects of them. If you claim I'm moving the goalposts, that would be a fair accusation, but I guess you'd just have to believe me that I worded something poorly in a long-ass comment and I meant to say Sunset's journey through the movies was unimpactful rather than easy for her.
[bq]
> Again, if anything this is your own biased headcanon, and further material, especially from A Friendship to Remember, confirms Sunset was more innocent originally, showing the picture was at least quite possibly depicting Sunset before she became worse.
I'm not taking "A Friendship to Remember" into consideration because such key parts of characterization should not be delegated to books. I'll consider whatever "Forgotten Friendship" shows us when it comes out. Despite what you might believe, I'm looking forward to it, even if I don't expect it to achieve much. You can never be sure and, again, despite how hard it might be for you to believe, it's not like I really want to not enjoy Sunset's character considering how much I enjoyed everything else about the movies. I just can't.
Anyway. Remember what Celestia said about Sunset. "When she didn't get what she wanted as quickly as she liked, she turned cruel and dishonest", unless I'm mistaken. I believe it was more or less that exact wording. Now does that honestly sound like someone who would turn completely innocent for no apparent reason? Does it sound like someone who, upon being stranded in an unfamiliar world, would become a nice person? Even though Sunset was never truly evil, she was still a nasty piece of work. She wanted power she thought she deserved, and she wanted revenge on Celestia. Do you really, honestly believe THAT Sunset would've turned into a genuinely sociable, pleasant person - enough to win the title of the crown without any manipulation or pretense? Does it REALLY seem more likely to you than the idea that she remained power-hungry and began manipulating people right off the bat, gradually dropping her act as her power in the school grew? If so, I don't even know what to say, because that, to me, would be complete craziness.
Okay, moving on to Starlight.
[bq]
> Hahaha, Starlight wasn’t selfish or egoistical ? Starlight whole motivation was revealed as at least somewhat selfish and egoistical.
If anyone's twisting facts and lying in this conversation, it would be you with this here statement. Starlight's original motive was trying to bring true friendship to everyone the only way she thought it was truly possible: by making everyone similar enough so they'd never fight or fall apart. Twisted? Yes. Delusional? Yes. Selfish? Absolutely not. Later, her motive was revenge. Revenge isn't the same level of selfish so much as an impulse to seek fairness after a perceived slight. Unlike her original driving force, this wasn't altruism corrupted by a deeply broken understanding of the world, it was her trying to exact what she thought was justice. She didn't want power for power's sake, unlike Sunset, she didn't want revenge on someone who denied her something she thought was owed to her, it was revenge on someone who, she thought, ruined her attempt to make the world better. Ultimately revenge is still for personal satisfaction, true, but the level of selfishness is negligible, especially compared to Sunset, because Sunset didn't JUST want revenge, and had a different, much more selfish reason for revenge.
[bq]
> She wasn’t thinking at all about others, and how many she harmed (including pretty certainly Sunsburst and her parents).
And this is more "twisting facts and lying". She wasn't thinking about others being harmed because she was certain nobody else would be harmed. Prior to seeing the wasteland version of the future, she'd never seen any of the resulting futures. She thought the consequences of her actions would be limited to breaking up Twilight's friendships and denying her friends their cutie-marks. If you can't believe she didn't know about Twilight's exploits due to her remote location, well, she addressed specifically that herself. She did not believe that any friendship could be so important, "even Princess Twilight's". If she had known about the consequences, she would not have gone through with it - demonstrated further by how seeing the consequences was the first step to her calming down. So no, she did not knowingly condemn anyone to deaths and suffering, she only condemned the mane 6 to unhappiness, as far as she knew.
[bq]
> when Starlight has a sudden change of personality/characterization, or inconsistency in characterization you make up excuses for it
[bq]
> At the very least, you again didn’t address my point on how Starlight’s change looked odd, despite your earlier statements…
There you have it, I once again explained why I think Starlight's change of attitude is different from Sunset's and why it didn't seem odd. Beyond that, there's nothing to address or prove here because you aren't actually making an argument. You state your opinion that it might've looked odd, I say that I disagree and no, it didn't look odd. I explain why, you ignore the vast differences between the two characters and continue claiming I should think the same of both of them as if they're identically handled.
[bq]
> Funny you accuse Sunset of being a neutered Twilight from season 1-2, as many see so Starlight. Again, showing you behave exactly like Starlight’s haters, only directed at Sunset.
Just because I criticize something and haters criticize something, doesn't make me behave exactly like the haters. Just because your positive views of Sunset are so deeply entrenched you make things up when it doesn't hold up, ignore arguments to the contrary, consider your opinions prooven and facts and mine "twisting the facts and lying", doesn't mean you have any more claim at being right than I do. From how I see things, you're a vastly worse Sunset fanboy than I am a Starlight fanboy.
[bq]
> I mean, as I mentioned similarly before, using your logic, one could say %%%%~
~
> %snip
> Again, I’m using your logic above, just applied to Starlight and your own behavior.
No. You aren't using "my logic", because I'm not using logic when I'm stating an opinion. And what logic I do use, you completely ignore. What you're doing is bringing up a collection of ridiculous and outright wrong claims about Starlight that you don't even agree with yourself, and trying to equate them to an opinion that you disagree with and seemingly can't even comprehend. Just because you don't understand why I think what I think of Sunset and Starlight (separately and comparatively), doesn't mean you get to claim I'm just spouting nonsense. And you say discussions with ME are impossible? Have you looked at your own comments?