This show is fucking amazing.

@Dragon-Commando
 
I think she genuinely lost to Chrysalis.
 
One thing that bothers me. Why does everyone feel the need to justify why the heroes lost rather than just accepting that the villains are also powerful and effective?
 
Like, that makes the villains look weak after a while. If the heroes are always stronger, they just never feel like going all out.

@Dragon-Commando  
(_sigh) I really need to chop the head off this “she didn’t continue the attack because it’s not in her character to do so” pure excuse line of thinking. No offense, but it really is the lowest of the ‘death battle youtube comments section’-level numbing. Not that that aspect of her character isn’t true, but you are completely missing the point and are just making excuses for Twilight “Not winning” while ignoring many obvious facts.
 
The rest of your comment is stuff actually worth addressing, so my reply to that other sentence I will send in a message, so we will not speak of it here:  
(message sent)
 
Sorry @Pagan, I want this thread to wind down, not escalate. :/
 
For your other points, its not that we ignored your ‘took a fall’/‘putting on a show’ theory, its just that we really don’t know what to DO with that theory. To quote one of the ccg Hasbro cards on Celestia,
 
“Some historians believe that half of the major events in Equestrian history were set in motion due to careful planning from Princess Celestia. The rest of the historians say its ALL of the major events.”
 
While that’s obvious exaggeration, chessmaster-lestia has been canon since episode one with how she pushed Twilight into the direction of the other 5, and has been in full force since the beginning of Season 3 with Crystal Empire.
 
The point is, she’s obviously responsible for the escalation of certain major events, she admitted to so in one of the most well-written Celestia perspective comics. But as for an immediate threat of a lethal invasion? I’d like to believe Celestia would not be so reckless as to turn the changeling invasion into another inane life lesson that doesn’t even pay off.
 
So maybe it is only half? (shrug) Either way, I agree with @Starswirl, it most certainly isn’t the only solution.
 
She’s lead her people for 1000 years, its not unreasonable to assume she’d underestimate someone besides Discord matching her power for power, and that her base power she normally uses would be overwhelmed by an extremely gutsy villain.

@CronoM
 
@Dragon-Commando  
My only problem with the “putting on a show” argument is saying it’s the only possible truth. I don’t think she did, but you’re free to do so. It’s the claim that there’s no way she did not take a dive is what I disagree with.

@CronoM  
It’s like people arguing against me on the Celestia front completely ignored the “Putting on a show” part of my argument. You don’t take a dive and make it obvious…
 
And I gave a good reason for her to take dives too, one that would be perfectly in character for a multi-thousand year old ruler that knows what she’s doing. She doesn’t want her people to become reliant on her power, she wants them to be strong on their own.
 
And again, if Twilight has herself convinced that she isn’t powerful enough she might not even put up that much of a fight. And the fact she caught Starlight in a crystal once is FACT. It’s easy to go from there that she didn’t continue the attack because it’s not in her character to do so. It’s just as much a stretch as going on Celestia’s expressions, and Twilight is a pacifist, she’ll only go as far as she feels she needs to. Having herself convinced she doesn’t have the power to win would mean she’d look for an alternate solution, which she did.
 
I should add that in the comics Celestia DID say she’s more powerful than she lets on, if people even consider the comics canon at this point. (I don’t anymore, I think they’ve gone off the rails)

@Starswirl  
Dhx, hasbro and idw have all vetted that celestia has a fiery overlimit mode for when she is willing to put her life on the line.
 
That, along with the simple fact she simply was not as strained as chrysalis bears at least the benefit of doubt that she didn’t give the same amount of exertion that chrysalis did. There are various levels of ‘underestimation’ for someone as experianced in powe as celestia. Pick a definition you are most comfortable with.

@CronoM  
She was always already there when Twilight arrived. Who’s ignoring context now?
 
But fine, it’s not directly spelled out either. It could be wrong. However, if you think Celestia’s defeat must be due to her holding back when all you have is expressions we won’t come to an agreement.

I’ll say that they really did have to fit a lot of stuff into 42 minutes of showtime for the finale so I can forgive some things feeling rushed. Also we do still have time for them to elaborate on how Starlight got so powerful next season, if they do.

@Starswirl  
And for the record, I am not at all supporting the idea that Starlight SHOULD have that much magical power unexplained by such a weak backstory. They really rushed the last 10 minutes and her character’s justification for existing suffered greatly for it.
 
But just because I think Starlight’s power is unjustified by the lack of story provided doesn’t mean I’m going to instantly take Twilight’s side and come up with ridiculous scenarios on how Twilight was better the whole time, pretending she’s a powerful or invested warrior hero. That isn’t Twilight’s character. She’s got a good deal of power, and she does care, but both have very definite limits, and she’s only been stretching her limits with the latter since Amending Fences, which is excellent, but she’s still a work in progress. I refuse to take sides and ignore the narrative.
 
When conversations become this biased on ‘who would win’, it reminds me of a DeathBattle youtube comments section. Sorry, but hell no.

@Starswirl  
“Starlight rigged the scroll so that she appeared before Twilight every time.”
 
Starlight: “Whenever you cast it, I still get sent back here” Nothing in that suggests it brings her further back, she’s just had a long time to think of ways to completely out fight and out think Twilight immediately.  
––  
“ Plus, we have no idea if she could siphon any power from it in addition to the above advantage.”
 
That’s just another wild leap with no basis whatsoever!! The original time spell didn’t offer a nonsensical powerboost, and the alterations were with her own magic. She wouldn’t be siphoning off herself :/  
––  
“People forget that the World of Cardboard speech is directly followed by Superman being handed a sound defeat.”
 
Via a weapon purposely made for frying his nerves, not by being overwhelmed physically. What’s your point? :?  
––  
“As for Celestia’s expression, it changed from determined, to surprise, to shock. To read that as “clearly” showing she was holding back doesn’t hold water.”
 
The lack of significant effort kind of does, dude. And if you stopped making wild excuses for Twilight simply not being that powerful in canon (or giving arguments that don’t go anywhere like the weapon Darkseid pulled on Superman that had nothing to do with strength), I’d be more inclined to believe your perspective.  
––  
“By that logic, Chrysalis chould’ve lost because she was visibly straining and didn’t look triumphant right before she won.”
 
(if you just said should’ve)…nooooo, that usually means Chysalis was giving the beam struggle 110%, beyond her normal limits, thus increasing her chances of winning. That’s the most basic writing logic.
 
(if you just said could’ve) Of course she could of lost! She was a gutsy villain, she put everything on the line, 110% and more, to defeat Celestia head on. The odds were against her, but in a rare twist, she was an underdog villain, and instead of cowering to protect her own life like most scheming villains do, she put every bit of effort into knocking Celestia out.  
––  
“You can interpret things that way, but if you go by what was shown, Celestia lost to Chrysalis in a magic battle.”
 
If you intentionally ignore all context and emotional narrative in the conflict, then sure.
 
But most people don’t do that, so few people are going to care about that perspective. (shrug)

@CronoM  
Starlight rigged the scroll so that she appeared before Twilight every time. Plus, we have no idea if she could siphon any power from it in addition to the above advantage.
 
@CronoM  
People forget that the World of Cardboard speech is directly followed by Superman being handed a sound defeat.
 
As for Celestia’s expression, it changed from determined, to surprise, to shock. To read that as “clearly” showing she was holding back doesn’t hold water. By that logic, Chrysalis chould’ve lost because she was visibly straining and didn’t look triumphant right before she won. You can interpret things that way, but if you go by what was shown, Celestia lost to Chrysalis in a magic battle.

@Dragon-Commando  
@Starswirl  
The same could be said for that version of Superman. When you have fight all the time with restraints, being the world’s ‘top dog’ the power unleashed is frightening, its not supposed to look like your ‘holding back’.
 
But putting your life on the line for the attack? On Celestia’s side, it absolutely did not look like that. It looked like she was using her magic to ‘pass judgement’.
 
Since the emotions they displayed are the only ‘facts’ we have to gauge effort, we should use them without random guessing. No insinuations like @Dragon-Commando ‘s “She was even able to stop Starlight in a crystal once, if she’d fired a second shot it would have been over. But that’s not in Twilight’s character.” which is just biased guesswork that ignores the canon assurtion that Twilight felt completely outmatched magically.
 
If Celestia wasn’t holding back, even if she was naturally reserved, her facial expressions would of gone from determined, to strained, then shocked right before Chrysalis’ final push. Instead, Celestia’s expressions skipped from determined to shock before the blast.
 
That’s a clear sign of not going all out.
 
She wasn’t necessarily ‘going easy’ on Chrysalis, but she was definitely still underestimating her. Normally that would be basically the same thing, but for high tier powers at the top of the food chain in terms of magic who feel they always need to hold back, its a big distinction.

@CronoM  
IF Celestia held back. There’s no hint of it in the battle.

@Fwelin  
Wait what? Starlight had the massive advantage? That makes no sense.
 
Things were already set in motion for the Sonic Rainboom to happen. When they were fighting with magic at least, all Twilight had to do was hold off Starlight’s magical interference for merely a minute so Rainbow Dash could, as Starlight put it, do the actual impossible with the Sonic Rainboom and link all their destinies. Whatever cosmic forces surrounded that event important as heroes of harmony, it was very focused on that moment. It even took a very direct approach with Rarity, her own magic guiding her to the site where she would witness it.
 
Twilight would be prepared for the battle whenever she reused the scroll, while Starlight would be instantly summoned, and unlike Twilight, Starlight also had to worry about using her magic to maneuver around Cloudsdale. Plus, not having wings, not having alicorn magic, etc. Starlight only had the advantage because she was stronger and more clever.

@Dragon-Commando  
Extremely unlikely. All evidense seems to point that while her overall skills is strong and she’s proficient in almost every area, her magic quality here hasn’t gotten that much more powerful then the little blasts she and Cadence used against the worm. Still far higher level stuff for an average spell caster, but nothing like Starlight demonstrated. All skill, no will.
 
The other problem is her body has TOO much magic, and she can only access some of it.
 
Based on the magic pouring out of her as a child and many other scenes, her problem has always seemed to have been too much magic for her own self to handle. Like an early Avatar state, but there were likely some lesser willed Avatars at one point or another. What Twilight can control currently is a ‘leveled’ out amount of power where its high enough for most spells, but its not high enough to blow up in her face or burn herself out when she’s angry or distressed(blew house sky high, cindering teleports, firey manes that burn her out, etc). Heck, she admitted she only got to the level where that wasn’t too big a problem as an alicorn at the end of S4.
 
In other words, she can cast almost any spell with fairly high levels of magic, but anything beyond that is out of her level of will/skill.
 
For Celestia, her holding back is a combination of being willing or unwilling to use her enormous amounts of power to the point where lethality is almost assured, and also not underestimating one’s opponent to gauge whether she can win with the power she uses casually with limits. Prime example, Chrysalis. But Hasbro, IDW and DHX have hinted that there is a ‘solar flare’ mode where she releases those restraints if she doesn’t underestimate at all. Celestia is very much the Superman ‘living in a world made out of cardboard’.
 
For Twilight, its almost the exact opposite problem, her being weak when she shouldn’t be…is simply having access to magic she doesn’t have the will to use, and what she CAN control is apparently useless compared to Starlight’s magic.
 
Don’t get me wrong, Twilight’s still has the skill, she’s gutsy, and her magic quality is slowly getting higher, but Twilight just doesn’t have a lot of raw will or emotions to use whatever really powerful magic being the Element of Magic gives. Getting intellectually invested is a lot easier for Twilight then being emotionally invested, one of the major themes of this season in fact.

Twilight is becoming so powerful

@Dragon-Commando  
The position she sits in is ruler, not defender of the realm. You don’t need to be invincible to rule a nation.
 
No matter how strong you think Celestia and Luna are, that just means Queen Chrysalis with Shining Armor’s love is even stronger.

@Tetrominon  
Celestia certainly looked like she hadn’t expected it.

@Fwelin  
@Dragon-Commando  
Watch the scene again: it’s pretty clear even Chrysalis didn’t expect the surge of power she got.

@Fwelin  
It makes no sense that way, absolutely none.
 
Given everything she’s done in history, the position she sits in. If she was as useless as she puts on she wouldn’t be there.

@Dragon-Commando  
There’s literally zero evidence that Chrysalis beating her was anything but legit. If the writers had wanted us to believe that Celestia purposefully put her citizens in danger, then they would have given some kind of hint, not having her be explicitly knocked out and waking up in a cocoon later.

@Starswirl  
The writers had to progress the story somehow, and it wouldn’t have made sense for her to just stand around and look dumb. It’s easier to have her make a show of it and get beat.
 
But going on that, I really think she could have beat Chrysalis, but she took a dive because she knew things would be alright, and if they weren’t, she’d still be able to unleash solar hell on the changelings.

@Dragon-Commando  
You mean when Chrysalis did beat her?

@Tetrominon  
YES, this is a perfect example
 
And I imagine Celestia and Luna feel that way too.
 
Though Celestia also takes dives it seems, specifically because if she dealt with every problem her people would become dependent on her. So she makes sure to play defeated when she knows someone else can handle it.
 
I’d love to see her kick ass at some point though, maybe more than I’d like to see Twilight go full power.