@PUBLIQclopAccountant  
Sounds good to me.

@SuperSonic15  
I forget where I posted this, but the writers need to write an present-day episode where the O.G. princesses solve the problem of the day before the Mane 6 can assemble. Make more episodes that don’t feature the main characters: it makes for a better show (or switch characters so often that there is no real main character, like The Wire or GoT).

@PUBLIQclopAccountant  
I know that, but I’m getting annoyed at how much they use it in the show against the Princesses and Mane Six as of late. It gets boring after a while.

@SuperSonic15  
I think the TV Tropes page for this is called the Worf Effect

@moonlightaveger  
I agree with that we don’t need to dig deep to show Celestia as a competent ruler in her daily schedule. Having Celestia simply doing her job would help give her a leg to stand on as a necessary character without touching those subjects at all.
 
When I talk about her potential as a character I’m referring to the experiences she’s been through and the circumstances of being the long-lived ruler of Equestria. But that’s if you want to have her as this complex and nuanced pony.
 
You can show her as a benevolent ruler and give her some character without making it complex.
 
I guess I want Celestia to be this multi-dimensional character that I believe she can be but come to accept that’ll never happen other than in fanworks. But I know that doesn’t mean she can never be her own pony in the show.

@Harmozel  
You say that you’re fine yourself, but you seem to think that trying to do show Celestia as a ruler would necessarily invoke themes that are too much for the audience to handle. Give me an example of what you’re thinking.
 
A priori, I think you’re wrong. You don’t need these subjects (or that kind you mentioned talking about the new SJ season) to portray Celestia as a ruler. MLP is a children’s cartoon. You don’t need complex. Things have never been complex in this cartoon. I think you may be too hung up on Luna’s turn into Nightmare Moon and Celestia’s reaction to it. CELESTIA SHOULD BE MORE THAN WHAT LUNA MADE OF HER the same way that Luna doesn’t need Celestia to define her character. I don’t give 2% of a damn about that. There are a million things they can do with Celestia and one-time characters to solidify her character, completely ignoring Luna (like they usually do with Luna), especially in the course of 1000 years and after her return. Seriously, I don’t understand why people think that showing Celestia doing her job as a princess is so hard. I gave examples of it myself.
 
What exactly do you mean by a fully actualized and developed character then? I think that Celestia has two problems: 1) She’s not given proper development for the role she has in Equestria, and; 2) There’s a notion that Celestia is something but the cartoon shows her as another. Neither of these are really difficult to fix, and fixing these problems is enough to make her a character.

@moonlightaveger  
What I mean by “heavy” is more mature or complex. An example would be the new Samurai Jack season where we see a man suffering from PTSD and hallucinations due to survivors guilt and despair. That wouldn’t slide past the censors into a children’s cartoon.
 
For the ruler part, I’m good with whatever as long as it shows her always being in control or having the odds tipped in her favor. A 1000 yr experience would let her know every trick any politician would ever think of using.
 
I kinda disagree with you on that part. If you want Celestia as fully developed and actualized I’d say no. Simply just stopping at having her portrayed in the ways you described, then yes there’s really no excuse.

@moonlightaveger  
You’re not the only one who was upset at how the Changelings were able to capture Celestia so easily this time alongside the rest of the Royal Family and Mane Six.

@Harmozel  
I think I’m missing your point. What do you mean, exactly with “heavy”? “Darker, mature”
 
I don’t like this approach. “Subtle and diplomatic” just makes her seem powerless in this scenario. Unless the scene can conjure a reason why Celestia should take the time (something like “better results”). Still, this implies that we’re talking about a gray area. If someone is doing something obviously wrong and someone puts them in their place, it’s not being snobby or resorting to threats. It’s being the ruler she’s supposed to be. As it is, I can barely see her as a ruler already. She feels more like a celebrity, than anything like a defender or ruler. Heck, not even a teacher.
 
Honestly, I’m convinced that Celestia isn’t particularly powerful (as a spellcaster this time, I mean). If they try to show that she’s powerful right now it’s just going to be jarring to me and that whole “rules” thing just makes me think of contrivance. It’s a way of worfing the character anyway. I can’t live with the way some changeling joes managed to capture her this time. I’ll never live this down.
 
I’m sorry, but yes, she is. People just don’t care enough to do it and use it as an excuse. MLP is a children’s cartoon, not a Godfather movie. No one is going to complain if Celestia someday wipes the floor with someone for a good reason.

@moonlightaveger  
What I meant by jarring is in order for us to invest in her character we would have to go into topics that are heavy for the show. Such as banishing her sister, maintaining her kingdom as well as her image, and having to teach ponies constantly on friendship and other life lessons. I can’t imagine how taxing it is to do all things without showing any signs of fatigue or negative emotion. She’s practically a bedrock for her ponies and it must be a great burden to carry. I mean, you don’t even have to touch upon immortality to see how Celestia is kind of a tragic character.
 
I do love how she’s portrayed as a kind ruler/goddess considering how rare that it is in media. For her political presence, the show could present her dealing with things in a subtle but diplomatic way without having to resort to threats or snobby actions.
 
I don’t even think it’s a problem to have her be very powerful without worfing her or using her as a deus ex machina. You just need to have rules set and explained from the beginning so having her not interfere in every threat doesn’t come off as a plot hole. Not do I think does she ever need the whole “world of cardboard” treatment which just do a huge disservice to her character.
 
Celestia’s character isn’t easy to handle but for good reason. When you manage to pull it off you have a multi-faceted jewel that is Celestia in your hands.

@Harmozel  
Honestly, I don’t think that they can do that. Anything they do is going to feel underwhelming unless they come up with something really unique and important that doesn’t conflict with previous seasons. Especially since I think that DHX hates Celestia for some weird reason.
 
“I think at this point I’m a fan of Celestia as the fully realized/developed character she could’ve been and not the one we’re given on the show. It just makes me sad how she really has no purpose anymore nor does she tower over her ponies as she used to.” I’m right there with you, but if they cared for this in the beginning, they could’ve come up with all sorts of things to put Celestia in her place.
 
I don’t think that Celestia being a ruler or leader would be jarring. Why do you say that? The cartoon has no problem with Luna entering dreams and delivering morals and help. Or Cadance making two ponies fall in love. Or Twilight mentioning reformation spells. Or Starlight Glimmer magically lobotomizing her friends. Add to that imagery of slavery, fantastic violence.
 
I’d have no problem with Celestia delivering justice to a noble doing something bad, like abusing his power over employees or something. Maybe investigating something wrong in one of her own cities. Even if we go into controversial topics, there are ways of making the conflict so clear cut that there is no way anything she does can be seen as bad. Simply Celestia being the goddamn queen she was supposed to be would fix this.
 
She doesn’t have to be ultra powerful for any of that and still could be captured and abused the way the writers do and at the same time, it would pretty much fix the problem. What about that adage that EVERYONE likes: the ruler that serves her people. It would be easy to show that Celestia actually helps ponies. they could setup a court hearing, Celestia happening upon something wrong and working to fix it, or perhaps, Celestia successfully defending her ponies for a change? This is easy.
 
Well, I like the fact that she was created too. I like the “good deity”, the “good king” that aren’t very usual in our culture nowadays. At least her fans like her and write fanfiction about her.

@moonlightaveger  
Ah I understand now and I agree with what you mean. Celestia is a wasted character and at this point I dread any appearance she makes. It makes me wonder how they’ll salvage the respect or mystique she originally had.
 
I think at this point I’m a fan of Celestia as the fully realized/developed character she could’ve been and not the one we’re given on the show. It just makes me sad how she really has no purpose anymore nor does she tower over her ponies as she used to. Maybe due to its target audience Celestia as a realized character could be jarring. Since the topics she would bring too light might be too heavy for the show to handle.
 
Even with the disappointing treatment she receives. I’m thankful for Celestia’s creation in the first place.

@Harmozel  
I know. Caelum means sky, Heaven… It’s also a variation of Celeste, one who comes from the sky, or Heaven. I don’t disagree that her appearance, name, etc… Are meant to symbolize something. The problem is that she’s a character in a story, not just a painting or a concept. Like I said, “I’m aware that in Lauren’s head Celestia was supposed to be a combination of Queen Elizabeth and a greek goddess.” Or the pony Goddess Empress if you will.
 
There is no doubt that Lauren wanted Celestia to be separated from the other ponies, and that is what gives meaning to that scene of the party at the Cakes’ way back on Bird In a Hoof and the simple fact that she and Luna were the only alicorns. But what the original intention was means nothing now. Sure, the show’s writing is to blame for this, but that is the character that we got.
 
That is what I mean when I say that her appearance makes her look different for no reason. Luna is the princess of the night in visuals and in her niche in the cartoon: dark blue coat, a mane that looks like a starry sky (especially considering her own original design), dream powers, her personality. The only thing Celestia really does is show up sometimes, do nothing and let others fix the problem. At best she works with Luna (and still loses). She doesn’t have anything similar to Luna’s powers, she doesn’t really have an interesting personality. She looks like a politician: full of hot air and just useless to actually do anything. Not to mention that if she vanished from the cartoon, it’d make no difference, because there is nothing that she does that couldn’t be done by any other character. Unlike Luna.
 
My biggest disappointment with the cartoon. People, myself included, latched on to an idea of a character that doesn’t exist in the cartoon. Until that changes, Celestia, in the cartoon, is just a waste of animation to me.

@moonlightaveger  
Celestia’s name is derivative of the word that finds root in the Latin word for heaven. She’s obviously designed to represent divinity or have some godlike characteristics regardless of her treatment in the show which Lauren would have no way of knowing would happen.
 
I disagree with you she “looks different for no reason”. Her white and gold theme has a purpose as I previously explained. Even rainbows have been known to be used for godlike beings. I just don’t know what you mean by Celestia being different regardless of Lauren’s intent. When it’s obvious it was her intent to separate her from the rest of the pony folk as their god-empress or whatever. Her status now doesn’t detract what her main purpose was. It simply makes her treatment more jarring not her design.

@Harmozel  
True. But it goes nowhere. Like I said, she just looks different for no reason. If she was the only that can make it day, and if it gave her some presence in the story that is unique to her, it would be something, but even that ceased to be true in the second season.
 
White and gold represent divinity. So what? How does it translate to the stuff she does? I’m aware that in Lauren’s head Celestia was supposed to be a combination of Queen Elizabeth and a greek goddess. That represents power in several levels that Celestia in the cartoon never really showed. So she’s just different for the sake of being different. Regardless of what her creator intended.
 
I’ve seen people comparing her mane to the aurora borealis too. And considering Luna is dark blue, Celestia’s white makes me think of the day. Doesn’t feel right to separate their complimentary nature. Even if Celestia’s seem lacking.

@Harmozel  
Yeah, that’s what I’m afraid of this coming season. If we already have confirmation of them being in another season premiere so far, even if Celestia will have a major role in it from just looking at the title and synopsis, I still fear they will have few and far appearances until the season finale when they will need to have their sorry flanks bailed out of trouble again due to that being how the writers write any episodes that they appear in.
 
To Where and Back Again was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back for me with how Celestia was treated there after she and Luna has been heroes in The Crystalling with helping save the Crystal Empire, then get screwed over again come the finale when dealing with the return of Chrysalis.

@SuperSonic15  
Celestia and Luna’s treatment from the show has unfortunately made me wary of any appearance made by them. Since they’re either used as exposition devices or worf machines.
 
@moonlightaveger  
Celestias mane to me is supposed to represent the different colors of the day. The white and gold appearance derives from the use of those colors to represent divinity. Celestia’s design is more based on Greek influences than directly sun based imo.

I think that Cadance has the best visual design among the princesses. Celestia… Eh… I want to like Celestia because of her character, but the cartoon doesn’t really help much. The other princesses managed to get me interested but Celestia is a big blank that needs filling with substance. Not just silly things like “she likes cake”, “pet phoenix”, and a bunch of other things that don’t really make a difference in the story. Those are quirks… I want a real character.
 
Other than that, I like white and gold and I kinda like her mane, but Luna’s more interesting because she’s the princess of the night and her mane looks like a starry sky. Celestia… I don’t know. It just looks different without a reason to be different. Makes me wonder the things Lauren (whose opinion now is about as important as a third wheel on a cart) had thought for Celestia originally.

@Harmozel  
Still doesn’t make up for how they are treated as damsels in distress in most season premieres/finales when they are supposed to be the two most-powerful Alicorns in Equestria.

smol Luna, big cellie. c:

@Amethyst_Crystal  
I could argue they have the best designs of the show. It’s just too good.

I love how the royal sisters always, always stand out, no matter where they are.  
And not just because of their magical floating manes, they stand out in still screencaps too.