odd relationship..

@Mooniedrop  
you cant prove objective morality because morality by its very nature is subjective, morality is a construct of a society a collectively agreed apon set of ideals of what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’ that for the good of the group, society as a whole, all agree to follow and adhere to.  
200 years ago, it was morally right to own slaves, now its considered monstrous  
in roman times the age of consent was like 10, nowadays that will get you a one way ticket to sing sing to be bubbas bitch.

@kittyzuzu  
True it does not prove objective morality, it’s more a if you don’t like getting shot in the face or raped or having your stuff stole then don’t do it to others. Or in this case don’t complain when someone locks you into a vault to die like animals by plague. And I think my argument was that the initiation of force was morally wrong, Do on to others as you would want them to do on to you was just a easy way to put it. Sorry for late answer was lost in Ikea.

@Mooniedrop
 
That was objectively not my argument. Do on to others as you would want them to do on to you, doesn’t prove objective morality. objective morality may exist, but that is a different discussion.

@kittyzuzu  
Is it merely your opinion that no objective standards exist, or is it objectively true that no standards exist?

@Mooniedrop
 
This doesn’t prove objective morality, just one’s own personal desires

@Background Pony #6F11  
The initiation of force rape and murder is morally wrong, it’s the golden rule if you don’t like it to happen to yourself don’t do it to others, that’s how you know it is wrong. Shame Blackjack did not die with them.

@Spiritus Arcane
 
 
So your argument in the end is:
 
Because ponies from outside of the stable feels it’s wrong, therefor it’s wrong? That’s not really an argument of the ethics in 99. That’s just an argument of some ponies personal psyches.  
And since stabletech didn’t establish the function of the stable, so therefor what 99 preceded to develop in the aftermath an unforeseen event, it must be consider completely wrong? Why is stabletech the only organization allowed to create/test new forms/ways of governing ponies and not be considered amoral? Judge the system based on its own merit and not who first constructed it. Looking at stable 99 through a grimdark pragmatic lens, I would say the system was a moderate success for a desperate situation.
 
But, it seems will we have to agree to disagree. Because I will continue to think what the stable did to maintain order and the lives of the majority of its residents, to be at least understandable. True, even the author of the FF espouses the actions of 99 as wicked. And the author, has that right to make any moral foundation he sees fit to be in the universe of his making. But in a meta level, morality isn’t decided by one person.
 
Awesome! Discussion though. And…. Twisted logic? I do believe I remained consistent throughout this discussion.

@Background Pony #78B2  
It was repression. It was the Overmare reasserting her absolute authority rather than to lose face by actually working out a compromise. Instead of working things out peacefully, she used violence to put down those that would dare stand against her and then enslaved the survivors in such a way that would ensure no one would dare question her or her decedents again, and then instituted a propaganda campaign that covered things up so eventually everyone believed it had always been that way. If you wanna use your twisted logic to call that pragmatism, fine, I’m done. But the story still backs me up in thinking what was done was wrong. Just about every character not from 99 who finds out about the conditions there usually reacts with some sort of shock or disgust towards it, this includes some of the villains including Cognitum, through Applebot, right before she shows Blackjack the truth. Even characters from 99, including Blackjack and Scotch Tape, ponies on the upside of 99’s system, come to realize this after spending time outside. Blackjack even has a minor breakdown when she finds out that it wasn’t a result of a Stabletec mandate but something they did to themselves.

@Spiritus Arcane
 
It was pragmatism. The stable implemented the new protocols after the uprising. It was very extremes solution, but the new ordinance did keep the stable under control. The stable wasn’t outside help for the stable, it was just them. 99’s actions prevented chaos from overtaking itself.

@Background Pony #8D5B  
Except it WASN’T pragmatism, it was a freaking power trip coupled with misandry and revenge! Biology had nothing to do with how things in 99 ended up except for the fact that it was one gender oppressing the other! What happened in 99 wasn’t necessary, it was wrong and a tragedy, not some cold logic survival method! That’s the entire freaking point, and even the story acknowledges it!

@Spiritus Arcane
 
Yes, stallions had no other role after the uprising. So the only thing that was left for them was biological need.
 
I am aware of the system and how the sexes had different roles to fulfill with in the stable. Biology is the one to blame here. True, the stable could’ve been more amicable to the male sex, but pragmatism isn’t always benevolent.
 
Yes, the ratio was 500 mares 40 stallions, it was like that because stallions were less needed than mares.
 
My mistake, I should have elucidated myself more. When I said overmare, I was simply saying any leader with near absolute power, regardless of sex. It’s like the term mankind meaning both male and female.

@Acespade777  
Wow I need to read before I post… I also need to pay attention to what I’m typing…

@Background Pony #65EA  
You’re still missing the point. Stallions had no other roles to fill because they were forcibly removed from being able to fulfill them. Before the revolt, stallions seemed to have already started to be treated poorly, but they were at least still allowed to be normal members of the Stable. After, they were basically little more than sperm banks.
 
Under the breeding system, if a mare had colt the foal was basically dumped into a section of the medical facilities until they came of age, at which point they had about a decade where, if they were lucky, they lived as a living dildo, until they got put down for the ‘crime’ of being the oldest male of their pony type. If a mare had a filly, the foal got to grow up in relative normality, even if they were locked into their future job due to birth roles. They got to have at least a bit of an actual family, living with and knowing their mothers. Again, Duct Tape was a rarity, maybe even unique, in that she actually gave a damn about her foal’s father.
 
Also given the adult population was 500 mares to 40 Stallions, I’d say the males were actually a lot less disposable than you think, especially if they wanted to maintain any sort of genetic diversity.
 
Addendum: You’re also wrong about only mares in the Overpony position. Stable 24 had an Overstallion, and was running just fine until a unicorn filly’s magic surge spliced some pets togther into something out of a horror movie that killed them all.

@Spiritus Arcane  
Let’s not forget that the overmare dis this to the males after they tries to destroy the stable… They got mad at the overmare for not letting her because they thought she killed her colt to get another child in hopes of a daughter. Keep in mind no proof of this was given of this happening… But let’s be honest it probably did… But they litteraly wanted to kill everyone in the stable because of that. So the overmare took their rights away and used them to help keep the population growing. The new overmare was a bitchy little cunt that hurt stallions. And later on it’s said that p21 not wanting to do anything with his daughter is because of 99… It’s because he’s scared of having a family… He just used 99 as an excuse to try to shrug the responsibility… And let’s not forget the other major thing that happens in 99… (No spoilers though)

@Spiritus Arcane
 
 
Yes, males are the disposable sex. And compared to western standards, no pony was giving basic autonomy. And there weren’t any roles that were needed to be filled by stallions, mares and then their fillies were assigned to all the vital functions of the stable. Not saying that was good, but it was a natural reaction to the uprising.
 
As I said before and I’ll say again, every pony was forced into an occupation, they didn’t get to decide it. And once they were placed into their position, they could not leave. Both stallions and mares were breeding equipment for the continuation of the stable. Mares, however, had a full-time duty outside off the value of their wombs. With mares performing all the functions needed, the only other roll stallions could conduct was stress relief functions. Though the stable should’ve just encouraged it (The natural stallion sex drive would mean they would most likely agree with it) than whether force it on them.
 
As far as I know, every stable had an overmare with near absolute power, that was a flaw shared by all stables. The system didn’t destroy itself, the overmare destroyed the system. All ponies are venal enough to risk their own cake for change that they think will benefit them. So no system can be prefect when it is made and maintained by imperfect life forms.  
Returning to the status quo had nothing to do with the stable’s demise. If the ponies of the stable did decide to reform, the stable would’ve still falling. The ponies overestimated the stable’s machines ability to filter contaminates, that was their downfall.

@Background Pony #F110  
I’m sorry, ‘males are disposable’? These are supposed to be people, even if they were being used as breeding stock. And again, there wasn’t any real reason to limit them to that role either. Stallions were perfectly capable of doing anything else in the stable as their female counterparts but the Overmare who instituted the breeding program just had to have her mare dynasty and then decided it should be that way for everyone. There may not have been need for an equal amount of mares and stallions, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t deserve to ALL be treated like people.
 
And yes duty must sometimes take precedence over freedom, but we’re not talking ‘slavery to society’ in a metaphorical sense, we’re talking a very literal use of the term slavery. The males were all sex slaves. Just because most of them had been conditioned to accept or even enjoy it doesn’t make it any less untrue. They had no choice in the matter, not just breeding duties but when it came to the recreational sex too. They had no actual choice to say no. And when the 21st colt of their subtype’s balls dropped, the oldest of them was effectively taken out back and shot, and P-21 was in his low twenties when his number came up.
 
As for 99’s system, well, 99’s system supposedly kept order, but it also is what killed it in the end. This system kept a mare with absolute power but dangerously ambitious and paranoid in charge where she let dangerous raiders into the vault in a foolish attempt to find some way to increase her own status. Its mistreatment of males contributed to this, as the current U-21’s main motives for leading them to 99 (the Overmare had been using him as a disposable scout, which was how she made contact) was to turn the tables on his tormentors. It’s a theme that comes up in P-21’s own character development as BJ sees him as someone P-21 could have easily become himself. Finally, after the stuff with the raider virus, their insistence on returning to the system’s status quo got them all killed when, instead of listening to Blackjack’s warnings about burning the infected bodies to prevent re-spreading the disease, they just dumped them into the recycler as usual, getting them all infected again except for Scotch, thus necessitating them all having to be put down.

I think FOE:PH really fantastic to make people discuss for it so much XD

@Spiritus Arcane
 
Recreational use: I said besides that.
 
Institutionalized murder: Just a less flattering word for population control, it was a need. Males are disposable, that’s genetics. I argued this before, you don’t need a high or equal male population.
 
Mistreatment: How is this an argument of the system? Bad ponies exist, bad rulers who believe the rules do not apply to them exist. That’s not an absolution of their sins, it just means their sins are their own, not the systems.
 
Freedom: Freedom and duty don’t always mix, at times one of them must take priority. In this case duty trumps freedom, all ponies must serve the needs of the collective first.
 
The rebellion: It is a need to keep order. You’re justified to argue that the new restriction and discrimination placed on the stallion after the uprising, was complete over kill. However, it was a decision that was made, and did, to bring order once more to the stable. Stable 99 didn’t have access to other stables or the outside, they were alone on forming new ideals that would keep the stable running. The stable had to create a system that would work for them. They made a system that was morally questionable, but it worked and maintain order for years
 
Why do you keep saying slaves? And considering the situation of the stable, why do you keep saying stallions were the only slaves? Every pony had their functions to serve the greater good of the stable. Every pony was breeding/bred for the continuation of the society, personal freedom is small compared to the needs of the stable.

@Background Pony #CFCD  
Recreational use. Institutionalized murder. Mistreatment or outright torture by some of the mares, including the Overmare at the time of the story’s beginning. General deprivation of free will. And again, the fact that the entire situation wasn’t created out of any sort of necessity except for one mare’s need to justify her own hatreds.
 
You keep trying to justify what happened as if it was somehow NECESSARY to enslave part of the population as breeding stock, when, again, 99 was a normal stable up until it happened. There wasn’t anything too different from 99 than the standard control Stable aside from the recycling system. Yes there was a need for population control…but any problems with overpopulation were also moot given that all the mares had sterility implants to prevent unplanned pregnancies. The reason things in Stable 99 were so wrong was because there wasn’t any NEED for it to be like that.
 
@Acespade777  
As for P-21’s attitude, not it wasn’t fair to Scotch, but it was understandable, given that at first he likely viewed her as another part of the system he hated. Even his feelings for Blackjack contributed to his attitude given that she’d been just as much a part of it as the rest of the mares before, having been one of his users and had even been ringing him to his death of Deus hadn’t come along.

@Spiritus Arcane
 
Ok, besides the force recreational use of stallions, what do you feel is unforgiveable about stable 99, granted, if you finished the fanfic, you will know more than me on the subject. (Don’t worry about spoiling the story for me)

@Background Pony #DD26  
Because the fact that other stables can, and did, survive without resorting to such methods makes it black and white. There was no real need to create such a society. It wasn’t part of a Stabletec mandate, and circumstances didn’t dictate the need for it either since as far as we can tell 99 ran pretty normally up until then. No, instead this was the result of a misandrist mare on a power trip who managed to sucker in enough of the rest of the stable population to go along with her whims. The fact that no one except some of the system’s victims questioned that it was wrong doesn’t make what happened any less WRONG, it just makes it more tragic that it took the events of the story to do anything about it.

@Spiritus Arcane
 
Why are you so black and white on this? No pony gets to decide the society they are born into. No pony gets to decide their base ideology and what/how they are taught. And if there weren’t born into a system, it’s a high chance they would be dead before their first birthday, and if there weren’t giving any sort of instruction, they wouldn’t even be able to speak a language. All of this were forced onto both stallions and mares of the stable. Are there better ideologies, of course. But to simply say they were brainwashed, sounds dogmatic. The only one true none necessity was the force recreational use of stallions, everything else can be justified for the harsh reality they were born into.

@Spiritus Arcane  
I wasnt aware I said it made it better? If anything I explained why it was worse for him specifically… it may be brainwashing… but at the same time it may not be… you have to look at both sides of the coin in some cases… yes P21 was raped… and brutally at that… but taking it out on Scotch who is still young and quite innocent is not fair to her… but clearly other stallions seem to be fine with it…

@Acespade777  
And that makes it better somehow? If anything it makes it worse since they succeeded in brainwashing their victims and themselves to the point that they think it’s ok, and be it for their orientation or not, makes P-21 and the two U-21s the only ones smart enough to realize how bad things actually are.