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Celestia has never been shown interacting with the nobles outside of the gala, which she hates. She didn’t even go to the garden party being thrown in her garden.
Conversely, the very first thing we see Spike doing in this series is going to a party. I see no reason to assume it was Celestia as opposed to Spike meeting the parents of his friends at Centerlot’s elite school.
As for Rarity, Hoity apparently had no idea of who she was or what she looked like. And he came specifically because Spike mentioned it to him.
No, Spike did hit the beginnings of puberty in SoME. “He is starting to mature, of this I am quite sure.” There is no evidence to suggest that dragon greed growth should either:
a.) Reach teh point it did with Spike since the symptoms were not understood by ponies as opposed to dragons, who would presumably do a better job protecting their stuff then equines.
or
b.) Is normally reversible, especially since Zecora never mentioned anything about reversing his growth, only impeding it.
I see no reason to assume that Spike is not in the age range of the dragons from Dragon Quest, especially since we have evidence that his growth is stunted due to his own choice. Certainly, dragons can grow without greed, but given the nature of their species I can see no reason to assume that this is the norm. Since this bit of information was released, he hasn’t been called a baby dragon. Not that the phrase meant much anyway, given the fact that dragons live millennia.
There is no clear, or any really, evidence to suggest he is the same age as the CMC, and while certainly nothing definitive to say he isn’t, all the existing evidence points to his being older. The show, and the characters in it, don’t treat him like the CMC, he doesn’t go to school like the CMC, and he doesn’t hang out exclusively with other school age children like the CMC.
Every member of Applejack’s immediate family we have ever seen was present, except Applebloom, who was also the one she was telling the story to. Mentioning Granny Smith and Big Mac wasn’t relevant either, yet we see them both at the beginning and at that end. I can understand not showing the parents, but to not have Applebloom at all?
I came to that number when they said 100 moons between reunions. I have a large family, and every few years we all get together for a big family reunion. We also have smaller family reunions with only some parts of the family in attendance. I would argue that the first episode is the latter and Apple Family Reunion is the former. There is zero reason to assume that the orbit of the moon is different between worlds, just as there is no basis to assuming the year is different just because Celestia moves the sun.
The problem is that saying Spike is mature because he was raised in Canterlot isn’t a good reason, particularly since there is no evidence to suggest that theory over the other than ‘people really want it to be true’. As for age, we have nothing definitive but we can make reasonable guesses. Twilight’s training was all under Celestia, we know this because she taught herself levitation in flashback. We know this training started following Spike’s hatching. We also know her training included something called magic kindergarten, and I see no reason to assume that it isn’t what the name implies: Magic lessons for kindergarten age children. Given that, I see no reason to assume that Twilight was more than six when she hatched Spike, and I see no reason to assume that any of the mane 6 were much older than that in flashback. Fluttershy is the only one we have a canon age in regards to the others, one year ahead of Pinkie Pie, and she looks noticeable different. We also know that Aj got her cutie mark when she was younger than Applebloom. Hence why I put the CMC at 7 or 8, which information we got in Apple Family Reunion seems to support.
Spike being paid does not prove in and of itself that he is an adult, it just provides another piece of evidence to support the theory. He also managed to find a Fire Ruby without either Twilight or Rarity’s knowledge, and I see no reason to assume that he didn’t buy it himself for his birthday dinner.
I never said she didn’t indicate him when talking about face painting, I said that in Equestria, ‘adults’ play children’s games all the time so I’m not seeing why face painting is immensely childish when ‘Pin the Tail on the Pony’ isn’t. Since adults play ‘I spy’ when they walk, perhaps face painting is the act of teenagers in Equestria. I can think of more than a few examples in fiction, and real life to my dismay, of couples that use baby talk. Yes, he sleeps in a basket, so what? She fussed over him a grand total of twice in the series, which is also the number of times the sleep thing was brought up. Once in the second episode, once in the owl episode.
My evidence of Spike being treated like he was older is the fact that they treat him differently then the CMC. He goes with them on spa dates, trips, and when he doesn’t he stays home by himself, which is not something a child does without their parents getting arrested. The don’t treat like a child, they treat him as part of the group. If you want to say that they treat him like this because he’s mature for his age fine, but I see no reason to assume that’s the case.
And for the record, I see no evidence in the show to suggest that Rarity returning his feelings is impossible.
As I said I just wanna see how far can this get :P
I missed this when I was typing my other comment, but regarding Hoity Toity that is again making a lot of assumptions. For one thing, there’s no reason to believe that Rarity is a “no name fashion designer”, since she’s obviously relatively successful at her business and also, one of the writers for the show (I forgot who now) confirmed in a Tweet that there was originally a scene in “Applebuck Season” wherein Applejack was “helping” Rarity/giving her advice for a magazine interview or article of some kind, but the scene was scrapped for time constraints. I understand since it didn’t actually happen it could be disregarded in canon but still, the writers clearly think of Rarity as being at least moderately successful and have wanted to portray her that way.
But anyway, going back to Spike it’s entirely possible that he met Hoity Toity via Celestia on a particular Canterlot trip, or by some other means that didn’t have to involve him making a good impression or by any of his own contacts. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, and yeah I’m pretty much debating this just for the sake of debate, but it’s just speculation on your part so seems silly to use it as some kind of proof that he must be older than he appears.
@RIG
I laughed.
I didn’t say all people who claim he must be older are Sparity fans, but the fact is that most Sparity fans like to assert that Spike is at least a teenager so that the ship can’t be passed off as creepy or pedophilia, I imagine, or else make it more likely that Rarity would return his feelings in the first place.
As for your examples for how the mane six treat Spike as an adult (I think that’s what the first paragraph was supposed to be), I don’t see how any of that substantiates anything. If you look at the fact that Spike was raised in Canterlot and knows Celestia intimately, again, it only makes sense that he would be invited to the Gala with them, and his accompanying them to Appleloosa and leading the search for information can be attributed to the fact that he’s Twilight’s assistant (and in the latter case lives and works at the library and spends his days organizing all those books, even though I would argue that he was “leading the search” to begin with). His comforting Fluttershy doesn’t mean anything, because if I wanted to be super anal about it I could say that Pound and Pumpkin Cake comforted Pinkie when she was crying in “Baby Cakes”, and they’re both infants. As for the other examples of going to the spa, pet sitting, and your earlier example of baking, maybe I just had an extraordinary childhood but I did all of those things unsupervised by the age of nine, so I don’t think they prove anything other than, again, Spike is mature for his age and had a good solid upbringing. If any of the CMC were raised by Celestia in a royal court setting I’m sure they wouldn’t behave any different.
Anyway, like I was saying there has been no indication in dialogue, ever, that the mane six clearly consider Spike to be anything other than a child, and dialogue and action do support that they do think of him that way. Other than the examples I already gave (and in “Crystal Empire” Raity clearly indicated Spike when she said there was face painting for “the little ones”, by the way), Rarity calls him “Spikey Wikey” and coos over him like a baby or pet, he sleeps in a pet-like basket bed in Twilight’s loft and she has been seen fussing over him and his need for sleep as a baby dragon many times, which hardly seems like any way to treat a teenager. Just because they haven’t expressly referred to him as a baby for some time in the show doesn’t mean he isn’t one anymore, and especially since there’s no reason to believe that a huge amount of time has passed between “Lesson Zero” and the most recent episode that aired, quite the opposite in fact since Spike has obviously not grown physically at all, nor have the Cake twins or CMC and the latter are still without their cutie marks.
Spike was paid in “Just For Sidekicks” for petsitting, but there has never been any indication that he gets paid for the work he does at the library… all of the gems that we saw he had saved up could have been earned by doing other various small jobs over time or finding them on his own, or by some other means (Rarity has paid him in gems for his assistance before, Pinkie bribes him with some etc.). And, even if it did turn out that he was somehow compensated financially for his library job, it wouldn’t have to prove that he’s an adult… my father worked for money from the time he was six years old, helping around a farm, and up until very recently it was common for boys in particular to earn money by working paper routes and so on.
I never said that the fact Spike was raised in Canterlot, if substantiated, proves that he’s simply a mature kid, but it offers a very good reason why he could be simply mature for his age if he is as young as the CMC, which again there is no clear evidence to suggest that he’s not. I think that’s the biggest difference between us and some of the other people who have debated in these comments: you are saying that Spike is “substantially older than” the CMC as if it’s a fact, while I’m simply saying that there is no clear evidence to prove that he is, so at this time it’s just as likely that he’s simply mature for his age as it is that he is not actually a child after all. Until a more clear indication is given in the show, we have no way of knowing how old Spike is really supposed to be relevant to the ponies.
We didn’t see the CMC in the flashbacks when we saw Spike as a newborn because they weren’t relevant to the stories being told, at all. Rarity’s flashback scenes centered on her trying to make costumes and getting dragged out to the middle of nowhere so she could discover she had an innate talent for finding gems, and AJ’s flashback was all about her wanting to move to Manehattan to become a sophisticated pony, neither of which needed to involve their little sisters (or Scootaloo, obviously). There’s no reason to assume that the CMC weren’t in fact born and we simply didn’t see them. In fact, the fact that AJ’s parent’s were not present to see Applejack off or welcome her back in the episode indicate that they might already have passed on/moved out of her life as they currently have in the show, yet Apple Bloom exists so it seems likely she must already have been born at that time. With “Apple Family Reunion”, it can either be argued that the implication you mentioned was just that, and Apple Bloom actually has attended a reunion before (maybe when she was much younger and didn’t remember it clearly). that there is simply an error in continuity since Twilight appeared to witness an Apple family reunion in the very first episode when Apple Bloom was clearly present, or the possibility remains that you are in fact right. I doubt it though, since again, the first episode of the show seems to prove that there is not 8 years and four months between reunions, and I don’t know how you came to that number to begin with unless it was by what Granny Smith said about however many moons it had been since the last one. Even putting Granny’s sometimes borderline-senile moments aside, in that case that’s making the assumption that the moon’s orbit is the same in the pony world as it is in ours, and considering the fact that Princess Luna is solely responsible for the moon’s movements and we have no idea if Equestria’s “earth” is anything like ours, your math could be way off anyway.
Lastly, Spike did not hit puberty in “Secret of My Excess”, he experienced an unnatural growth spurt that seems to be a peculiarity of the dragon species, and it was entirely reversed in the end. In “Dragon Quest” we saw what were undeniably real teenage dragons, which did not resemble Spike at all, and considering the way they were fully capable of conversation and rational thought (even if they were obviously jerks) strongly suggests that dragons will mature naturally under normal conditions, something Spike clearly has not done yet.
Oh, there was never any impression that I would change his mind, and I’ve seen these arguments so many times it was unlikely that he would present something that I hadn’t already considered to change mine.
Frankly, I just like hearing other people’s points of view, even if I disagree. You never know when you’ll learn something new when you consider something from another person’s perspective.
Nope, today we declare our independence day, Today La Republica Sparitista de Derpibooru shall born!
Besides I want to see how far this thread can go :P
He got a premier fashion guru to come see a no name designer in a small town, that’s proof enough that he is in with the high class crowd enough to not only meet him, but say something he’d listen to. Being integrated into high society is the same as having connections, that’s why Rarity wanted to make a good impression on the Canterlot elite. She dreams about being a part of them, but it will also help her business immensely.
You meet people at parties, and since Celestia is a ruler who doesn’t do a lot of social events with high society (even when they are at the palace apparently), and Twilight outright avoids parties before Ponyville, that means Spike is going to these, alone. Without supervision. Since we have covered that he’s known enough to get Hoity’s attention, that means that he goes to a fair amount of them and managed to make a good impression on those there.
There are almost zero scenes showing Twilight cleaning up, there are several scenes of Spike doing so. Also, Twilight studies a lot, that’s kind of her thing.
It means that he spoke to him in Canterlot. When Spike mentions Hoity is coming, that’s the first time we see him in that episode. Since we have no evidence to show he can contact others, the logical explanation is that they met in person.
Spike gets paid to do chores/scribe work, for Twilight Sparkle, the OCD protege of the princess. That means he does his job up to the standards of Twilight who can only be broken from a study coma if an ink pot is out of place. He also gets called out for royal business, which means work for the princess. When you do something to the satisfaction of an important individual, such as the princess or her personal student, with very high standards, you are a professional.
Ok, so he gets “payed”, that doesn’t make him a professional. Kids and teenagers who do lesser jobs like pet-sitting are not unknown. That Spike does it isn’t proof that he’s professional.
About Hoity-Toity, he doesn’t really have to be integrated in high society, he just has to have the right connections. And I don’t know what parties have to with any of this.
And of course Twilight will be too busy to do anything when she’s studying, That doesn’t mean she refuses to do any chore when she’s not. She may be bossy with him in those kind of situations, but she isn’t ineffective without him. He just makes it easier for her with his assisting.
Now, something not really related, but about Hoity. Spike contacted him and said he’d go from Canterlot to see the fashion show, but Spike was in Ponyville at the time. Does that mean he can send messages to people other than Celestia? Or something else?
One thing i forgot in my last text dump, was the fact that you were looking at the relationship between Sparity and Spike’s age backwards, or at least in my case. I watched the first 29 episodes before I even set foot in this fandom, and was honestly surprised that so many people assumed he was in the CMCs age range.
Royal things I supposed, In middle age it was normal that princes/princeses has knowledged in all the fields possibles such as Literature, History, Science and of course Arts (ballet is included there)
>this thread
He said he was saving up for this cake, and then hit upon the idea to get more as payment for pet sitting. The fact he eats it is irrelevant, he’s still getting paid something that is clearly used as currency for work he is doing. And he very much understands that because he uses them to pay off ponies as the episode progresses.
Yes, I think Spike has the liberty to leave if he wants to. I also think all the mane 6 have that ability, I just don’t think he generally has a reason. We also don’t know what he was doing, but we do know that Spike is integrated enough in the Canterlot high society to get Hoity Toity to come to Ponyville. Considering the only class party we’ve ever seen Celestia at was the Gala, which she hates, and Twilight actively avoids parties in the first episode, while Spike goes to them, he has time to do his own thing.
Twilight has gotten better since season one about actually doing her own work, but Spike’s first episode had a line about how she, a unicorn with telekinesis, needed him to grab a runaway piece of paper for her but he was asleep. That was the plot of the episode really, Twilight couldn’t bother to do basic stuff while she was studying so she needed a night assistant.
He goes with them to the Gala, the spa, and Appleloosa. He comforts Fluttershy at teh end of Magic Duel, and led the search for information during that time. He takes part in the Hearth’s Warming play. He’s left by himself overnight on at least three occasions that we know of. They also trusted him enough to watch their pets, and Fluttershy has done this twice now. The fact that it led to shenanigans doesn’t really change that they consider him capable of doing this.
Yes, they call him little, since he is fact smaller than they are. The mane 6 play pin the tail on the pony, I spy, and have sleepovers with makeovers, so I’m not going to consider face painting the child’s activity it would be here because Equestria is obviously less mature on the whole than Earth.
Just for Sidekicks proves he gets paid, saving up for the gems for his cake. It doesn’t matter if he eats it, buries, or baths in it, if you give someone money for a job you are paying them.
Yes, he was raised in Canterlot. How is this proof that he’s simply mature for his age? You can offer the possibility certainly, but there is zero evidence to support that idea over the concept that he is simple more mature than the CMC, who again the show and characters have always treated differently than they have Spike, because he is substantially older than they are. We have seen Spike as a newborn, we saw no evidence of the CMC in that time frame, despite the fact that these were stories being told explicitly for their benefit.
Apple Family Reunion heavily implies that this is Applebloom’s first reunion, and it comes around every 8 years and four months. Given the fact that Applejack in the flashback of this episode looked to be roughly teh age of the Cake twins, yet capable of full speech, I’d have to conclude that Applebloom was born after the last one.
Oh, and the whole plot of Secret of My Excess happened because he hit puberty. They haven’t called him a baby, something they did a grand total of six times in show by the way, since Lesson Zero.
You know that’s pure speculation right? If I wanted to fill up the gaps for characters when we don’t see them in episodes I could say that, say, Rarity and Applejack are always together when we don’t see them too and they’ve secretly been dating since the end of season 2. It’s just as likely as what you just said.
The usual arguments that he must be older usually bring up the fact that he has a job and has gone to Canterlot on his own, etc., but you have to take into account that he was raised in Canterlot for one thing, is intimately acquainted with Princess Celestia and probably other members of the court (maybe even raised by Celestia per word of Faust, since we haven’t seen this contradicted in the show yet), and most likely given his affiliation with Twilight and Celestia he probably had a special education and was given training and responsibilities early on that resulted in him being more mature than most kids his age. And his “job” doesn’t seem to be paying like real work would be so it’s not like he has an income, he just helps out Twilight because he likes to. Because of this I really don’t think it should serve as any sort of proof that he’s a teenager or whatever, just a very mature, responsible kid who was born and brought up in extraordinary circumstances.
Actually, it would. He’s not a prince, nor does he act like one or has any particular knowledge of how royalty works. Whatever education he had, it probably wasn’t specialized.
And why would a prince need to learn ballet?
Remember what Faust’s canon states. Celestia took care of Spike and raised him the first years of his life.
Now come to think: He can play musical instruments (Piano and flute some far), knows how to dance ballet, can read and of course can write and has the ability to send letters using some sort of magic.
I know I might be overanalyzing but considering those facts It wouldnt be strange if Spike received the same type of education that receives young princes or royalty on his first years so that somehow explain how has already skills in some stuff.
Ok I suddenly realized I have no idea why I was on the “Spike didn’t have education” side, now that I look at it, it sounds ridiculous. So yeah, he must have had some education (I’m not saying that he studied cooking, piano or a career in specific, but he must have gotten the basics somewhere).
The gems may have a monetary value, but for Spike they have always been food. And however did he get those gems wasn’t explained, he may have found them on his own, or got them by helping Rarity, but what matters is that for him it has never been a form of monetary payment.
The difference is that Rarity or Aj had left to do something on their own, under no one’s supervision (because they don’t need any), but the one time Spike has left it was for royal business. He probably wasn’t wandering off through Canterlot, he was in the castle doing whatever he was asked to, under Celestia’s watch, or someone else’s. Rarity can always go to Canterlot to go buy fabric, and Aj has participated in the rodeo before. Do you think Spike has that liberty?
I don’t think Twilight leaves all the cleaning up to Spike, he’s her assistant, not her butler. Maybe the show doesn’t show much of it because she’s busy doing plot-related stuff. But well, that’s completely an opinion.