Y’know, you could’ve stopped her whole rant after the “This ends now” line, and it would’ve done just fine. But no, you went the extra mile and made her continue explaining why the captured villains don’t deserve to be sent to some hellish parallel dimension or something, that they need rehabilitation rather than punishment. it leaves me asking myself, why didn’t Twilight do and say all this in the show?

Celestia and Luna: you are going to banish us?

@GrimChariot
That makes sense. Still feel bad for Scorpan though. In canon it says that Scorpan and Tirek planned to steal magic together until Scorpan liked the ponies (That’s kind of how it went in G1, except it’s with Spike not the entire pony race) but this comic indicates that Scorpan didn’t know about Tirek’s true intention. He seems too innocent and precious here. :P

@Wayneponeth
It is betrayal, but as stated one can not fault Scorpan.

He put others before his family. The fact it was by definition a betrayal is a fact but that does not mean it was wrong.

Luna turning a blind eye put others at risk.

Scorpan did not turn a blind eye, and acted to fix the problem.

The fact it was, by definition a betrayal of one that trusted him is not the deciding factor, but also can not be twisted to say Tirek betrayed Scorpan.

Tirek has many faults. At the time of his first defeat in the past, loyalty to the ones who earned it and proved to deserve it was not one of them.

That became a thing because the one person in his family that actually made an effort to help him and stand beside him turned on him.

For the better, yes, but it was a betrayal none the less.

If Luna had acted and called out Celestia’s faults, it would be a betrayal.

But as with Scorpan turning on Tirek, it would be to help others.

Context-not intent- matters.

@GrimChariot
I just realized the Scorpan point doesn’t work because of what you said about Luna. Scorpan did exactly the opposite of what Luna did. He realized his own brother was going to do selfish things too so he acted up and tried to prevent disasters. I mean maybe he shouldn’t have snitched on Tirek, but it was never confirmed that he didn’t try to persuade him first. He probably insisted so much to his brother to go into Equestria as peacefully as possible but Tirek just never listened. Distraught by what his brother has become, he had no choice but to warn the ponies about the upcoming danger. He was definitely devastated that Tirek had to be imprisoned but it was for the better. So how come Luna being by her sister’s side to commit acts she didn’t even think was selfish or anything makes her equally as psychotic, but Scorpan trying to stop his own brother from his colonial ambition is considered betrayal? Again, a bit hypocritical here.

@Phoenixflambe
Good points!!

@Changeling17
Could be interesting.

@Background Pony #F4A8
Said fanart happened because she thought she was wrong about friendship than forcing it.

@GrimChariot
(Well, I did say that “might” be my last comment.)

I definitely agree Discord deserves at least having power striped away from him. He is too dangerous and he hurt Fluttershy a lot.

Still though, the way they talk to Twilight just feels weird. I mean you have a point with gaslighting and like I said they give convoluted hints, but when it comes to talking directly? They never seemed that rude to her. Must be a period thing.

At the end of the days, I know I’m not gonna change your view and really you’re not gonna change mine either. I wouldn’t go
as far as calling these “facts” as just like every fiction, there are always different ways of interpreting it. And none of them are inherently wrong. Your interpretation actually gave me some insight of their actions, but I still won’t call Celestia and Luna as bad as murderous or vindictive the same way I also believe those 3 deserve redemption. That’s just not how I interpret things. I mean yeah throwing Cozy Glow in Tartarus is definitely stupid but I enjoy seeing Cozy Glow as a villain so I’m fine with them not reforming her. It’s my bias and opinions that make me believe that’s who these characters are. If that makes me a bad person or something, so be it. I like to think of good guys as flawed but essentially good people and enjoy bad guys being bad because it’s more fun. Of course redeeming bad guys or making them sympathetic is fine but don’t use sob stories to validate their goodness, find goodness in their personalities and traits instead. And don’t do it like with Discord obviously. That is probably very black and white but it’s not like I’m some sort of morally high individual anyway. Whenever I make arguments like this, I never really do that to try to force others to agree with me. I kind of just like to express things for fun and see what others have to say. I’m glad to see people agree with me but I would be fine if no one did. Heck, I usually end up having my opinions changed. I’ll still stick to my guns and say Celestia and Luna don’t deserve a criticism this harsh, but I do agree they deserve some form of consequences just like Discord. (Yes I think that’s harsh, again, bias.)

Still though, Fluttershy afraid of flying in this comic? That’s a real destruction of character development right there. Again, I won’t forgive you if you screw over best pony. And again, what is so wrong with wanting bad guys to stay bad anyway? It’s fun. I kinda hope these 3 really didn’t reform like No Way Home. That would be interesting. :P

@Phoenixflambe
oh man now i can stop thinking about G5 Corrupted Twilight if this is gonna end like that

@Wayneponeth
Starswirl is an inter-dimensional criminal responsible for who knows how much damage.

That makes what these three did seem like child’s play.

My point is if these three deserve any further punishment?

Celestia, Luna, Discord and Starswirl deserve far, far worse.

I think you misunderstood my argument and I’ve only just now noticed it.

I’m all for second chances-provided it not only given to the people that benefit the individual dolling the chances out or to save people they have a vested interest in.

I also have to acknowledge that Celestia, Luna, Starswirl and Discord as actual characters have caused and incentivized far, far more damage then these three.

Which means the show constantly handing Celetia and others Free Passes is an insult to the shows teachings, and blatantly hypocritical.

I also have to acknowledge that without the veneer of a wise goddess(which neither of the two are) they aren’t good people. Their politicians at best and basically playing god otherwise.

Intentions do not equate to innocence. Nor do they absolve one of guilt-I’ve typed it out a few times, no need here.

That means if I’m to agree that any of these three deserve any punishment, period, then regardless of “change” the ones who’ve caused and succeeded at equal if not worse acts deserve the same if not worse.

If they decide to back off in this comic? Good.

If not? I sincerely hope Harmony is used on them and they suddenly look their age. I E a thousand year old hags and are stuck like that.

In regards to Tirek, he was the one betrayed, as Scorpan stopped his plot.

Scorpan knew what was going to happen, so he shouldn’t have been surprised. Tirek being left alone for 1000’s years was a willing decision on all parties involved except him. Tirek was in the wrong but in no way was he the one who turned on Scorpan.

In regards to “you” that was the royal you.

Because grammatically those sentences require that structure. Otherwise my posts would be thrice as long naming every character every time.

In no ways, grammatically or literally, are those saying you, as in the other party of the argument.

Yes, sending a child to a maximum security prison that treats it’s prisoners like literal animals is psychotic.

Even more so when it’s entirely the one doing it’s garbage management, security and policies that allowed it.

Irregardless of Cozy appearing to have fun, putting a manipulative child who’s probably 12 in the same prison as literal demons and thousand year old despots is both incredibly cruel, and should they prove to be a bigger threat then expected, incredibly stupid.

They had better options. They had more information. They made stupid, shortsighted, selfish decisions. Ergo, there is no excuse for their decisions save their own choices.

Again, Celestia has an entire archive filled with information she let fall apart out of sheer laziness and apathy. She dug the hole, she can sit in it.

Luna turning a blind eye is not excusable, she went along willingly. Just as someone who assisted in corporate crime and espionage knowingly is complicit, so too is Luna.

Just because you don’t think it is does not change the actual facts.

And putting entire nations at risk after avoiding research and information on your subject is entirely that.

It’s at best sheer laziness and negligence and at worst intentional disregard for everyone.

These aren’t exaggeration’s, no matter what you call them. These are the literal events of the show from go, from Celestia outright lying about the prophecy of nightmare moon and gaslighting Twilight the entire two opening episodes of season one, to her intentionally sending Twilight to try and save the Crystal Empire with the absolute minimum of information.

Those are facts.

And the comics even support it, openly stating she keeps piling things on Twilight to avoid people being dependent on her.

By instead making them dependent on someone else with less power, experience, and information intentionally being withheld from them.

If thats not the most selfish, shortsighted, cruel thing to do I genuinely don’t know what would be.

And yes, if I were to be blunt as a hammer, putting an entire civilization at risk repeatedly because you want to half ass a solution is psychotic.

All the punishments they levy are cruel beyond measure and at least 1/3rd of them result in fates worse then death.

If these two can do all that and “deserve a second chance” after committing and succeeding far more crimes and plots then these three as far as I’m concerned anything they say is manipulative and frankly if the three deserve death as you said “even Cozy”, Celestia and Luna deserve the same.

They don’t get special treatment. They are on the same scales and they are arguably just as bad if not worse then the three.

@GrimChariot
But Starswirl isn’t a hero. Literally only Twilight knew about him until later. And not forgiving him now even though he has changed is once again pretty hypocritical considering this comic’s message. Then what about the people Cozy Glow, Tirek, and Chrysalis hurt? They must feel such consolation knowing they’re free and about to be forgiven. Cadance almost starved to death and probably suffered psychological trauma over the fear of her fiance’s life. Cozy absolutely lied to the Cutie Mark Crusaders and used their trust to gain herself reputation in the school. And Scorpan, oh boy poor Scorpan.

Here’s another one of my question for this comic. What about Scorpan? Poor thing got screwed over by his own brother. He was always there to support Tirek, a more supportive family member than his father. He looks so innocent, so sweet. He probably thought his brother was going to make more friends and even gave him his pendant as a sign of friendship, but Tirek, his own brother threw it at his face. He was there to take ponies’ magic and take over their kingdom probably by force. Scorpan must’ve been devastated. That’s his own brother that he helped, supported, and cared about. Now her only wants to hurt others and is hungry for power. He must be even more devastated when Tirek had to be imprisoned, but let’s hope Tirek still cares about his brother after he is released. That’s his testament for his redemption, his relationship with his very own brother.

You said I’m complicit with them like I’m basically a little servant or an accomplice that grovels at their hooves but you make them out like absolutely irredeemable monsters instead of people with flaws and different qualities like the 3 characters we’re trying to redeem. Forgive me for being rude but most things you’re accusing of the princesses are either overexaggerated or outright lies. Luna being the observant and probably also thought what Celestia was doing wasn’t selfish makes her as downright demonic and evil as her sister? Celestia putting someone in Tartarus which doesn’t even look that bad in canon (Cozy Glow even had fun making fake Tirek and playing with him) to prevent them for taking away magic which basically keeps them her subjects alive, is deemed a torture? I mean yes Tartarus is literally hell but the show’s canon makes it nothing but a normal prison with cages. And you still haven’t told me who they blasted into bits. Sombra? Weren’t the Mane Six the ones that did that? Or are Celestia and Luna also at fault again because they let them do that? And again, Sombra was enslaving ponies without stopping so he should have been stopped. Most of what Celestia and Luna have done are either from the lack of other options or they a lock of better judgement. They’re not literally murderous devils who deserve to be burned on a stake.

When it comes to intent and actions, the same can always be said about those 3 or any other villains. I guess the point is that the princesses deserve consequences as well. That makes it equal after all. The thing is, again, if we want to give as large of a chance for one side of the spectrum, shouldn’t we also give the benefit of the doubt for the other side too? I mean again, Cozy Glow, Tirek, and Chrysalis has also hurt people too and now they’re here to be forgiven for that. If most of Celestia and Luna’s damage is mostly done indirectly, doesn’t that mean they also deserves some chance to be forgiven as well?

I’m almost running out of things to say. You actually had some agreeable points. Of course Celestia and Luna’s actions are problematic because like you said, intentions don’t make what they do right, especially if they don’t face consequences, but you exaggerate so much on what they’ve done and demonize them so much. Me just calling them questionable is obviously not enough. They have to be crucified. They must be labeled as absolute psychopathic monsters with everything they do as the absolutely worst actions in the universe. I mean yes throwing Cozy Glow into Tartarus was, well, questionable, but Tartarus isn’t really that bad when we think about it. That’s especially out there with Luna because her actions really don’t warrant her to be labeled the same as her sister. If the main issue is that their actions deserve retributions then I agree, but I argue that their actions aren’t downright irredeemable and don’t warrant them labels that cruel. They try to stop a dictator enslaving their subjects, a chaotic jerk trying to turn the world into his personal playground, a centaur who betrayed his brother to attack their subjects, and eventually one another for trying to cause eternal night and cold. They help their faithful student and friend grow to become confident in her own leadership and stay by her side until the end. Most of their methods are definitely short-sighted that’s true. Celestia definitely could have done more research on an empire before giving Twilight that test. Luna definitely should have kept her Tantabus in check better. And they definitely, definitely should have turned Discord back to stone long ago, but to call them selfish, murderous, vindictive goes a bit overboard. If this makes me just as awful as they are, heh, maybe I am. Maybe I do agree with them killing these guys. Yes, maybe even Cozy. My mentality is always if a criminal still hurts the innocent after being given a second or even a third chance, they deserve death. The point is the safety of the innocent, not the criminals. And I mean with all these forgiveness bull I’m talking about, I still have a stupid hate boner for Discord. The most important thing is how the princesses react after this page, because it still makes no sense if they still don’t listen.

That might be the last reply I make. I made too many long comments. I really do enjoy discussing things like this though. I haven’t done that here in a while. :P

@Phoenixflambe
That was a hyperbole.

If Celestia can put entire nations at risk and pretend it’s acceptable because she feels bad and everyone we’re supposed to care about’s fine(I.E the main caste) it’s absolutely laughable how the fandom and the franchise pretends Flim and Flam, Lightning Dust and others are somehow deserving of the vitriol they get.

I.E, burning down an orphanage and getting a free pass while a minor inconvenience is justified to ruin someones life.

@GrimChariot
Do you know what you’ve just said? What good guy would burn down an orphanage?

@Phoenixflambe
Having heart helps but ignoring the reality of ones actions because it’s easier for the ones being judged is cruel to everyone else and frankly undeserving of respect, sympathy or aid should it be needed.

If you don’t clean up the mess and expect to be forgiven as far as I’m concerned loyalty is gone and earning it back is going to be a war with poor odds.

Being forgiven doesn’t mean people should forget, and that’s unfortunately how the show does it.

Good guys could burn an orphanage down and say sorry while a small time con artist is somehow vilified to the point of ending a civilization.

Not exactly keeping to the shows own ethics and morals when Harmony’s used as a sledgehammer when convenient.

@GrimChariot
I know reality hurts, but I wouldn’t go as far and say that every good thing that happened was out of obligation than genuine heart.

@AwkwardLuna
I am calm.

You seem to fail to grasp what I’m talking about.

As stated-you want to take this “light hearted show” and tackle or build a story that acts like it has real world consequences, you don’t get to use cartoon logic excuses to avoid the failures there in.

The assumption I’m angry says more about how you are viewing this then anything else.

On top of that is the assumption I “want their heads”.

What I want is to see them held to the same standard they preach and use to condemn others, because as I’ve said a dozen times:

Intent does not absolve you of guilt, “Trying to do good” is not justification or reason to not be held accountable, and if you think it is I dread how many people you leave in your wake because they had to suffer for you to try.

You trying to do good means nothing, absolutely nothing, when you face no consequences and make no effort to clean up the dumpster fire left behind by your attempt or the fear you placed on others for it.

@GrimChariot
It. Just. A. Lighthearted. Show.

It’s not a deep epic, not every choice had to be seen through the lense of the real world because it’s an all ages cartoon. There’s no reason to treat the Princesses decisions like they were real royals in a complex situation. And as Wayneponeth said, if you’re taking this so seriously it hypocrisy to vilify and want the heads of the Princesses who were trying to do good but support characters who did blaintent evil multiple times.

Calm the hell down, you’ll pop a blood vessel.

@Wayneponeth
I’m sorry but being ordered or not, choosing to ignore Starswirls actions and allow him to be heralded as a hero when by all rights he’s a failure for a dozen reasons is the issue.

Choosing to do nothing because it’s convenient and makes you feel better about yourself and the ones you care for is no excuse.

Him becoming considerate now and being nice must be such a great consolation to those he hurt who’ll live with it for life or are dead.

He deserves equal punishment to anyone else.

Choosing to be an absolute fool and using “trust X can do this” to justify it is an insult to all who depend on you and trust you, and a betrayal of all the loyalty you’ve earned.

She knew a hell of a lot more, but as shown later on Celestia can’t even care enough to keep her own archives in a functional state much less plan for contingencies.

They aren’t bigots, they’re callous, cruel and vindictive to the point they allowed a child to be locked away after their prison failed, their guards failed, and Harmony failed.

Thats definitely psychotic and borderline murderous considering Tartarus os literally a hell on earth.

Name one thing they didn’t torture or lock away for centuries in solitude with no idea if it’d live or die.

Name one instance where they weren’t flippant and cruel to their captives.

Name. One.

Because I hate to be the bearer of bad news but intent doesn’t mean anything compared to what one actually does when one never faces consequences.

If you choose to stand by and let someone put a thousand lives at risk and blindly praise their decisions like a whipped dog you are complicit with their actions.

If Luna won’t speak up when her sister is being a selfish, shortsighted fool who’ll let thousands die to pat someone on the back I’m hard pressed to believe she’s any better.

And Luna’s Tantabus fiasco is if anything a prime example of why she should’ve never had her crown handed back to her on a silver platter.

I’m making the same points as always. You keep wanting to hinge your rebuttals on things that don’t change the underlying issue and instead try to absolve them on technicality or fallacy.

Irregardless of how things turned out or their intentions, they have committed, justified and been part of selfish, shortsighted, and in many cases, monstrous acts of their own.

I don’t care who’s side their on, the scales treat a pound as a pound no matter what it’s made of or who placed it there.

@Background Pony #68BB
You know what? I’m gonna stay positive and believe that that’s exactly what the intention is. My biggest point is to see what reaction Celestia and Luna have. I swear to god if this comic continues to make them the bigots after such a long speech, I would probably drop it. It would be pretty cool if the 3 villains eventually still won’t change but Twilight insists they deserve help like No Way Home. That would actually give it a good message.

@GrimChariot
Okay, the Crystal Empire thing is the one I can’t dispute even though she herself didn’t know much about it. The safety of an entire empire really shouldn’t be a test in the first place, but it does prove that Celestia will always trust Twilight enough to make every decision on her own.

Now the only time Starswirl’s actions have anything to do with Celestia is with Tirek. There is no evidence whatsoever she even ordered the banishment of the sirens or Stygian. Maybe Starswirl really is a vigilante working behind Celestia’s back. He doesn’t seem like someone who would ask his student for permission to do whatever he wants. And again, he eventually became more forgiving and considerate. I’m sure Celestia would do the same.

Honestly, you really didn’t really give me good points. So the worst things Celestia has done was turning a blind eye to someone else’s actions which might not even be confirmed she knows about it, and sending her pupil to a mission that she herself doesn’t know much about because she believes Twilight is more capable than she is? I mean short-sighted yes but selfish murderous psychopath? Doesn’t sound like that to me. And now Luna is just as bad because of the same reason? She wanted to be there to support her sister and also make sure the nation is safe under both of their care, so she is also a murderous psychopath with no sense of forgiveness? Celestia made a sacrifice where she had to be sisterless and completely alone for the safety of Equestria while constantly living with a guilt that she wasn’t there enough for her sister, and Luna traverses the dream realm to make sure every filly and colt sleep well devoid of nightmares sacrificing her own precious time to rest. Those are selfish? I think your reason with Luna is probably the weakest point yet.

It’s really ironic in a comic about forgiveness, we just can’t forgive Celestia and Luna, even though it’s evident they’re not actually as bad as the comic tries to portray them. I’m not saying they’re perfect little princesses who never do anything wrong. Luna’s emotional self-harm almost cost the entire world and Celestia has a list of times where she should have helped but didn’t or failed, same with her sister really. But they’re not literal devils where every single one of their actions is wrong and they deserve nothing but the worst. That’s kind of the opposite of what this comic is trying to convey. I guess it makes sense for us to be extremist in a comic where they are extremists. It fits, ironically. This is probably another prime example of the fandom liking to demonize the protagonists just to boost the antagonists’ morale. Why is it so bad to want both to have both redeeming qualities and flaws? Where is the so called forgiveness when it comes to the character you simply just hate?

@Background Pony #505E
“If they won’t allow me to give that magic, then no one can!”

Oh shiz, is she gonna fight? This is interesting, but I doubt they’re going to fight tbh. I don’t think Celestia would fight her own prodigy like that.

Man if this is her way to “Fix” everything i can see is not going to end well and it’s gonna end to G5

@Wayneponeth
Starswirl operated under Celestia in place of the elements of harmony, or he was a wannabe vigilante with no oversight despite having immediate ties to her. Her subordinates actions are her responsibility unless we’re allowing the absolute garbage that is “Plausible Deniability” to be seen as a good thing.

Luna turned a blind eye to Celestias actions and blindly followed. At that point she is an accessory.

Sombra may have cursed the empire originally but what did Celestia do to resolve it’s return.

Sent six civilians, with less information then she had available, with no back up.

And also nothing regarding the Crystal Heart itself-which she was clearly well aware of by history and should’ve been able to confirm.

Questionable is sending them with everything you know.

Selfish and short-sighted is what she did.

Ooh! Teleport away with the trio? Fight the sisters? What she does best: lecture the sisters?