@Background Pony #6D2C  
I just discovered this post! And who gives a shit that I made a comment on an old post? You apparently. Is doing that really so heinous?

@Background Pony #6D2C  
Yes. Ancient. And dead. And you’re working with Vergil to revive it.

@Vergil Senpai  
You cared enough to dig up an ancient post that should’ve stayed buried just to bitch.

@Background Pony #6D2C  
You saying that I think my opinion is fact is your opinion.
 
I never stated that phrase, If you like season 6, fine. I don’t give a shit. My opinion is certainly not fact.

@Vergil Senpai  
“My opinion is fact.”

At least suited for success was an actual good episode compared to the trite we get nowadays in season 6.

I agree more with Goobington here.

@sigh
 
Yeah.
 
And it’s worth mentioning that there have been dozens of toys that never appeared in the show and probably never will. Applejack’s truck, anyone?

@Jarkes  
They actually did, it’s just that the “dresses” they made for the toys were cheap pieces of crap that, half the time, barely resembled the stuff in the show.
 
This was before the fandom took off, you see, so quality wasn’t exactly in the highest of priorities.

What I don’t get is why they never DID make toys out of the Gala dresses.

@Minus  
As are the characters, you point?

Because gala dresses look horrible and give you absurdly powerful magic that can beat anything.
 
No wait they don’t. This is a terrible comparison. All the recent outrage is fully justified because IT IS being put into the show for toy sales. That’s a fact.

@Goobington
 
Quite, and just because we’re not debating anymore doesn’t mean anyone got the last word. Everypony’s opinion is valid and justified. Righteous indignation about your own position is merely a band-aid to cover up the things you don’t want to see. Learning to acknowledge and respect the differences in the reasons we watch the show is part of learning to respect people.
 
Everypony Equal…  
Everypony Loved.

We came to a number of agreements, including that Alicorn Twilight is like suddenly using butter in a cake, and expecting a lactose-intolerant person to still be able to enjoy it. You can talk all day about how the rest of the ingredients are the same, but the lactose-intolerant person still can’t eat it.
 
If you still think the show is good, that’s okay.  
If you don’t, that’s okay too.
 
I ended up admitting that the coronation made next to no sense, and Northern ended up admitting that Rainbow Power actually did make some sense.
 
It was a productive evening.

@sigh
 
Yes… yes it was. I even am compiling my half INTO a novel, and it’s not done yet. I’m waiting for Goob’s Response.

@Thanotos Omega  
That wasn’t a debate, that was a novel.

@sigh
 
Friendship happened. Friendship despite differing opinions. A beautiful thing, to be sure <3

@sigh  
A debate,

What happened in this comment section?!

Unlike Horse Women, The Cupcake Express, Rainbow Power, and Purple Nerd Manor, those dresses actually looked fine.

@Goobington
 
Clever defense, but it still has some holes.
 
Once again, you cannot deny that my allegory fits Twilight a lot closer to home, complete with moving from the safety of a castle to the unsheltered outside world and forming a close knit band. While yours does cover all of the topics of her growth, the Sage’s Journey fits them even closer, lining up on more details and nuances than a simple journey into adulthood does. As stated, the only fact that supports your allegory over mine is that it concluded in a manner that satisfies yours much closer than mine, hence why I requested we leave what actually happened out of the allegorical debate.
 
Your response to (2), while solid, still has a few holes in it. For one, the writers have explicitly stated that the reason they don’t write Applejack episodes is that she’s ‘hard to write for’, not that they don’t want to because they feel it fits the theme they’ve established better. as a second counterpoint, I’d like to point out that there’s a difference between achieving success in one’s endeavors and personal growth. Rarity’s business may have grown, but has she really become more than she was before? She designs for Sapphire Shores, sure, but that happened a long time ago and is a long established part of her character. Furthermore, this other axis of ‘how to be a girl’ that you purport as important was spat on by Meghan with the line “Every little girl wants to be a princess”. The establishment of Princess Twilight cannot be an expression of the variance in ways of being a girl as the designers explicitly stated that it was the exact opposite; They even had Rarity parrot that notion in the show, to the agreement of everypony involved. The varying social status of the Mane 6 represents nothing less than a popularity contest. There’s no mistake, Twilight is the favorite pony, Rainbow is the second favorite. The least favorite pony is regrettably Applejack and this trend shows in the episodes. It is expressed by the developers and by the ideals expressed in the changing nature of the Mane 6 that this dichotomy you’re trying to point out is a false one, merely a coincidence at best. Lastly, I’d like to contest it on the grounds that that’s still not expressing equal success and rewards spread out among the ‘types’ of girls. You can also say that being a homeless girl on the street is a ‘type’ of girl along this line of positive/negative advancement and by the logic you’re using that would appear in this dichotomy as Equal with being a princess, which simply isn’t true.
 
You seem to be making a few assumptions about Twilight’s Cutie Mark scene. First, even before Celestia accepted her, Twilight was shocked by what she did. Her cutie mark is not being a student, it is magic. Her explosion of power and the growth of Spike and everything like that are what created the mark, Celestia accepting her as a student (a point you still seem to be vehemently denying) is merely icing on the cake. Secondly, you assume a lot about Celestia’s raising of the sun. I contest that Twilight took in the MAJESTY of the incident, the magic being expressed, rather than that Celestia was incredible. Her relationship with Celestia is very much a Teacher/Student one, not a devotee/devoted one, so it stands to reason that Twilight’s respect and relationship with Celestia began as such and grew as such as well. As for the spell, and the ‘final test’, there’s a number of huge holes in it. For one, Twilight was not informed beforehand the consequences of such a test, a betrayal of the trust Celestia and her shared to be sure. Before you compare this with the cryptic message Celestia sent in the season one opener, lets look at the differences in the situation. In the season one opener, Celestia’s cryptic message served as a catalyst in a dire time of need. The world was in jeopardy and she needed to be sure that the friends Twilight made were real. Revealing to Twilight that she needed to make friends to save the world would be a mistake because Twilight would have gone to the first ponies she saw and told them that they needed to befriend her to save the world, which obviously would have failed. In contrast, there was no pressure on Celestia or Twilight at the beginning of the Magical Mystery Cure incident and therefore no reason for Celestia to not tell her that it would affect her in such a way, ergo, out of character.
 
Now, moving onto my argument about it being against the very nature of Twilight’s character once again. Twilight at her core has always been one to completely reject being looked at, praised or endowed with status beyond that of her friends (and I believe I have established now that the argument that this isn’t beyond her friends is kaput). She, given any choice, would never allow this to happen, nor would she accept that it was that way. It runs contrary to, as established, everything she’s done, see;
 
Friendship is Magic Part II, Winter Wrap Up, A Dog and Pony Show, Cutie Mark Chronicles, The Best Night Ever, Return of Harmony, Return of Harmony Part II, Lesson Zero (even though that episode was GOD awful), The Mysterious Mare Do Well, MMMystery on the Friendship Express, A Canterlot Wedding, Part II, Magic Duel, Even the episodes you’ve brought up from season four support the fact that if she had had a choice this would never have happened. She doesn’t see herself as better, she doesn’t WANT to be better. The only reason she was princessed was for marketing, there would have been no final test, there would have been no graduation. Twilight Sparkle wouldn’t WANT to finish her studies on friendship as it is the MOST important thing in her life. The fact that she accepts it is so out of character as to suggest that the very nature of her becoming an Alicorn altered her personality irreparably. Everything that she cared about, everything she believed in, the unity and closeness was peeled off; the proof is in the pudding, as stated many times, she no longer sits with her friends at events, like in Sonic Rainboom. She had to ASK her friends not to call her Princess, reflecting that there is a huge shift in how they view her and now, at the end of Season 4, even though they have thrones in her palace it is still HER palace, she lives there now. She is the princess, not them. She has lost the last thing connecting her to being the small town girl that she grew into being, she’s lost the last thing keeping her remotely on the same ‘level’ as everypony else. She is now ‘Princess Twilight of Friendship’ and if they have her accept that, then they’ve betrayed everything about her character from the beginning.
 
Lastly, about the crown. Magic is the focus of the elements. It’s established from S1E2 that Friendship is Magic, ergo, all of the elements focus their power with magic. As the central focus of the elements it makes sense that it would need to be bigger. Furthermore, let us not forget that these were used by Celestia and Luna to defeat Discord and later by Celestia to defeat Luna. We can assume these were made into what they were after they were discovered by Celestia and Luna and it would make sense that one of them would be made into a crown for the new princesses. I’d wager that the crown shape is simply for the fact that magic is the focus of the elements and it was designed to be worn by the princesses to focus power through. Makes enough sense, right?
 
Your move, Goo. I eagerly await your reply.

@Northern
 
Why not combine the two? If we’re breaking new ground with this debate, we could continue to host it here for all to see, and I send you a message on Skype when I submit my reply.
 
At any rate, I was in no way implying that something happening a certain way necessarily means that it was the correct way. There are plenty of episodes that I would have preferred to have played out differently. My point was merely that, whether or not the events that occur fit the character, the allegory can, in and of itself, make sense.
 
As my response to 2) has shown, the themes don’t appear to have changed. Having some of the characters advance, while others don’t (which has been happening since Season 1; see Suited for Success, Sonic Rainboom, and the opening of A Dog and Pony Show) is just another axis on the scale of different ways to be a girl. The lessons in the show continued to be about how to be a good friend, and the characters continued to learn and grow from them.
 
 
My point about the coronation speech, and Twilight’s actions during the parade still stands.
 
Twilight’s bond with Celestia is a core aspect of her character. The facts that:  
Twilight had always wanted to go to the Summer Sun Celebration,  
seeing Celestia raise the sun was “[…]the most amazing, most wonderful thing [she had] ever seen.”,  
being enrolled in Celestia’s school was “ a dream come true.”,  
it was seeing Celestia that let her regain control of her magic,  
and she got her cutie mark when she was accepted as Celestia’s personal protege is pretty definitive proof of this.
 
Completing Starswirl the Bearded’s friendship spell was Celestia’s final test for Twilight, and her reward was her ascension.
 
Was it rushed? Yes.  
Was it poorly explained? Absolutely.  
Could the whole thing have been done better? By several magnitudes.  
Was it against the theme of the show? I don’t think so.
 
Take a look at all the instances that Twilight’s princess-hood comes into play:
 
One of the first things she does as princess is gets out of her chariot and walks besides her friends.
 
She refuses to wear her crown and allow her friends to call her “princess”.
 
In “Three’s a Crowd”, Twilight gets upset by Discord implying that she thinks she’s better and more important than others.
 
The moral of “Twilight Time” is that the Cutie Mark Crusaders’ time with Twilight isn’t special because she’s a princess. It’s special because of the time and effort that Twilight is willing to put into helping them practice their talents.
 
In “Twilight’s Kingdom”, we see that Twilight is willing to give up her powers for the greater good. Just before receiving the other princess’ powers, she says  
“Taking on this task will be one of the most difficult things I’ll ever do, but with the help of my friends–”, meaning that even with the power of three other alicorns, she still depends on her friends.
 
Like I said before, even with the power of three other alicorns, she is unable to defeat Tirek, and ends up choosing her friends over her power.
 
When she tries to open the chest, she says  
“Together! I think we have to do this together!”
 
Just like when they first re-awakened the Elements, Rainbow Power was unlocked by each of them living up to their element.
 
Lord Tirek: “How is this possible?! You have no magic!”  
Twilight Sparkle: “You’re wrong, Tirek! I may have given you my Alicorn magic, but I carry within me the most powerful magic of all!”. Ergo, she values the magic of friendship more than even her own alicorn magic.
 
If you look at  
>>202759, (ignoring the text, I couldn’t find a good screenshot) you can see that Twilight’s element takes the form of a crown, while the other elements are necklaces. If you look back, Twilight was the only one writing letters to Celestia. Then, in season 2, all of her friends were given the task of writing letters. At the end of season 3, Twilight became an alicorn, but at the end of season 4, she and each of her friends get equally proportioned thrones in the castle.

@Goobington
 
[Tips hat in return]
 
You’re quite welcome, I’m very well versed in the arts of debate, as I’m sure you can tell. You seem to share this skill and I’m more than happy to carry on an intellectual conversation about myriad topics with anyone in the position to form a halfway decent thought, which I am more than pleasantly surprised that you are capable of exceeding. Every debate I’ve entered into about this topic has eventually devolved to the point of me pressing reason against a brick wall and uselessly hoping that it will somehow work. Your willing admission of fault and passive acceptance of criticism places you miles beyond the brick walls I’ve talked to before and I consider it an honor to continue a polite, intellectual discussion with a gentleman (or lady, I’m not one to assume) such as yourself. I could very much see you as the kind of person I would surround myself with socially if possible.
 
All of this said, I still have a number of qualms with your arguments and with respect, I would appreciate leaving the ‘it happened, so it must be correct’ argument out of this. There’s no honest reasoning behind or against that sadly true fact. Just because something is written does not mean it is written well or for our purposes in the spirit it came from. The foundations of my arguments aren’t based on trying to argue that Alicorn Twilight did not happen, they are that it should not have happened and that it did more damage to the meaning, message and spirit of the show and irrevocably was caused by a base shift in the nature of Twilight Sparkle, a jarring, sudden shift closer to that of a different writer taking up an esteemed novelist’s last work and aspiring to finish it while replacing the method, meaning and characterization with what they believed to be superior.
 
Alas, my comments tend to be long winded; so I would appreciate taking this to an instant messaging service of some kind if possible, preferably Skype. With Skype I don’t have to linger on Derpibooru literally all day waiting for you to reply so I can assert my refutations and we could, hopefully, perhaps pursue a friendship. I know you bear me no ill will and neither do I you. It is interesting that the tags on this image changed from Drama Bait to Drama due to our argument when nothing could be less true. We’re not complaining or fighting, we’re simply debating, which is a high class pursuit, no?
 
If you’d rather debate here, simply leave me a comment saying so in reply to this one. If, on the other hoof, you would like to take this to a more private field and have more instantaneous access to my company, kindly add me on skype.
 
“Zephyter0”, you’ll know it’s me when you see a traditional picture of a spiky maned unicorn mare. I eagerly await your reply and will leave you with this;
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--gMYXgixR4
 
I hope very much that you enjoy it.

@Northern
 
[Slow clap]
 
Well played. In hindsight, it is clear to me how arrogant it was to assume that a person couldn’t hold informed opinions without having the same experiences as me. I’m both humbled and glad that you called me out on this, and I apologize for it. And while you have to admit that there are indeed people to whom the image applies, (In return, I’ll admit that there are plenty of people who will praise something for no other reason than it being FiM) I also feel that I owe you an apology for lumping you in with them. I’m honoured that you still wish to continue this debate.
 
2) It actually occurred to me that I had fallen into a trap and blown my load prematurely. Over the course of the day, smugness gave way to regret that I didn’t post any proper rebuttals.
 
Rarity’s business actually has expanded in popularity. In the events following the end of Suited for Success, Rarity has dresses appearing in Hoity Toity’s boutique in Canterlot. This, presumably, leads to Sapphire Shores discovering her and ordering custom dresses. The season 4 episode I was referencing was actually For Whom The Sweetie Belle Tolls, in which we learn that Rarity is now Sapphire Shores’ personal fashion designer.
 
Rarity, Twilight, and Rainbow have all had their statuses advanced by following the aspirations established for them in the early episodes of season 1. The only reason that Applejack, Fluttershy, and Pinkie Pie haven’t advanced in that sense is that, as far as I can tell, they never had any aspirations established. Applejack just wants to keep the farm going and her family out of trouble, and Pinkie and Fluttershy just want to live their lives. Which I think is a fantastic message that serves to reinforce the “many different ways to be a girl” theme: “You can achieve great things by following your dreams, but you can also be perfectly content with who and where you already are.” The fact that there’s an even split suggests that this may have been intentional.
 
I wouldn’t consider this a problem for the “growing as an individual” theme. Status advancement isn’t the only way that an individual can grow. Every time a character learned a lesson at the end, they grew as an individual. Throughout the series, we see characters apply the lessons they’ve learned to their current situations in order to make better decisions. While some of the characters follow their dreams, and others are content with where they are, even in season 4, they never stopped learning valuable lessons and growing as individuals.
 
Thus, I believe that those core themes remain unchanged.
 
3) Twilight standing on the balcony was just a formality; no different than when Applejack stood on stage during Applebuck Season or The Last Roundup. As soon as her parade began, she immediately got out of her carriage to walk alongside her friends. In fact, look at these pictures side-by-side.
 
http://i.imgur.com/VTjO5Yv.png?1?4073  
>>250204
 
“Lucky” can also mean fortunate. I’ve worked hard to get where I am, but I’d still say I’m lucky to be where I am. In fact, many people say at their wedding or anniversary “I consider myself the luckiest man alive.”
 
When she says  
“[…]the friendships I’ve made with all of you.”, I’m pretty sure she’s referring to:  
the friendship between her and Fluttershy,  
the friendship between her and Rainbow Dash,  
the friendship between her and Rarity,  
the friendship between her and Applejack, and  
the friendship between her and Pinkie Pie.
 
When, in the history of language, has  
“the friendships I’ve made with all of you” ever implied that the speaker is responsible for making everyone in question friends. It’s a perfectly valid statement even when two of the friends in question already know each other (such as Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash).
 
The complete sentence of  
“On a day like today[…]”  
is  
“But now, on a day like today, I can honestly say I wouldn’t be standing here if it weren’t for the friendships I’ve made with all of you.”
 
That day was the only day that she was standing there.  
She would not be standing there without the friendships she’d made.  
So it would make sense for her to say that on that day, she wouldn’t be standing there without the friendships she’d made.
 
So your argument that it’s out of character comes from cherry-picking a single moment from the scene, and from skewing the meanings of words and sentences. In some cases, in ways that don’t even make sense and aren’t ever used that way. It would be like reading the sentence:
 
“I would kill for some nachos right about now.” said Harry.
 
And then going:  
“That’s so out of character. Harry is a pacifist. He wouldn’t kill anyone. Especially not for nachos.”
 
I don’t even believe that you’re being serious with those arguments.
 
4) Even if something is out of character, they’re still the events that happened in the story and thus are the things you draw a parallel to.

@Xidphel
 
Thank you. I know that most people who believe as I do about things aren’t capable of expressing WHY they believe such in any more than a “Trukk not munky” argument, but I personally find that it is important in all things to provide reasoned evidence, as such I have thought long and hard about these topics. I could literally write a book about what I like to call the alicorn fallacy and the reasons behind myself and others complaints about this. Call me silly, call me crazy, but don’t call me ignorant or wrong unless you want to prove so.