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+-SH safe2257599 +-SH screencap301996 +-SH starlight glimmer62389 +-SH twilight sparkle369854 +-SH alicorn333783 +-SH bird15394 +-SH chicken1855 +-SH pony1689096 +-SH every little thing she does1091 +-SH g42118167 +-SH animated131087 +-SH apple22352 +-SH banana2790 +-SH book45663 +-SH carrot2960 +-SH carrot dog100 +-SH chick232 +-SH egg5730 +-SH female1897812 +-SH food107155 +-SH gif61604 +-SH hat132352 +-SH magic101251 +-SH scroll4516 +-SH teacup4281 +-SH teapot1600 +-SH teeth24808 +-SH top hat6008 +-SH transfiguration13 +-SH twilight sparkle (alicorn)154363 +-SH watermelon1027
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your current filter.Edited
…
Then how the hell don’t these ponies get heatstroke on a busy day?
your current filter.all units ready to roll out
war
not until after she casts her spell!
@Vinyl Fluff
biological classification has nothing to do with complexity. spiders are just as much evolved as birds, just they were selected for lower intelligence than birds were.
you could say the rate of evolution of spiders was slower than birds, because spiders have changed very little over the eons compared to birds, due to fitting into their niche so well.
but order isn’t a taxonomic rank. it’s just a category, like species, or family, or phylum, and no one order is higher than another.
I certainly agree that it’s silly to say that life isn’t that special just because spiders are dumb.
@Fwelin
those are all contingent on the assumption that a canterlot wedding wasn’t the worst idea to ever hit the show (including equestria girls) and anything even mentioning princess cadance should be automatically disregarded as too stupid to possibly be reality.
your current filter.checkmate athesits
I feel this will continue on with neither side agreeing on anything, so as I’ve said twice now, we’ll have to agree to disagree. But I do want to address two points.
So moving the sun isn’t hard for a god. You don’t see the problem with that statement? “We know Celestia isn’t that strong because in real life mythology a god could do it.”
It’s called biological classification. Order is a taxonomic rank. All living creatures are given one. A bird is more complex than a spider, hence it’s a higher order creature. Birds are more intelligent than spiders. So the objection becomes this isn’t a spider, driven by reflexes and an incredibly simple nervous system, that’s operating on instinct. But rather a much more intelligent creature that is capable of thought proceses. Some species of parrots have demonstrated intelligence equivalent to a three year old human. But given your admitted opinion that “life isn’t that special”, I’d not expect this to mean anything to you.
Sorry for the delay, I didn’t have internet for a while.
No, my argument is that we have numerous pieces of evidence that Celestia and Luna aren’t “godly” (Celestia losing to Chrysalis, Celestia getting exhausted from battling normal ponies, Celestia and Luna losing to the weather), and the only “outlier” is completely worthless, because the sun and moon work so differently that we can’t take any conclusions about their power from it at all. There are quite a few examples from mythology and fiction where moving the sun is not an especially impressive feat compared to how it would be in real life (such as with Helios, the Greek sun god), and there’s also evidence in-story that since normal unicorns used to do it, it’s not a ridiculously hard task (unless you’re assuming that Unicornia had hundreds of Twilight level casters, which is absurd). Also, that statement from The Crystalling was not part of the “how strong are Celestia and Luna” debate, but evidence towards the “Twilight might be immortal” debate. If they earned their alicornhood instead of being born as alicorns (which is the heavy implication of those lines in that episode, even if it’s not concrete proof due to the “in Equestria” loophole), then the biggest possible reason for Celestia and Luna being different from Cadance and Twilight is gone.
Again, I never claimed those things. I said that all evidence says that Celestia and Luna aren’t many, many times stronger than Twilight, not that they’re suddenly equal (Celestia being, say, a few times stronger than Twilight is fine; I’m just arguing that she isn’t dozens, hundreds, or more times as powerful as her). Also, I never claimed that Twilight is immortal (because there isn’t any strong evidence of that), but that it’s very possible that she’s immortal, because the only statement one way or the other is completely worthless.
McCarthy’s statement is worthless because of how much it specifically dodged the question of whether she’s immortal (even if she was forced to not give an answer, we still don’t know what answer she was prevented from giving; plus, I find it much unlikely that Hasbro would prevent her from saying that Twilight is not immortal), and there’s a half dozen ways for “Twilight will not outlive her friends” and “Twilight is immortal” can both be true. For example:
1: Twilight’s friends could become immortal too (or they could already be immortal due to being the bearers of the Elements/Rainbow Power).
2: If she’s got the eternal youth version of immortality instead of the “completely unable to die” version, she could die before her friends for non-aging reasons (not going to happen because of the nature of MLP, but still a way for the two statements to co-exist).
3: McCarthy could have been saying that she will not outlive her friends because Spike, Celestia, Luna, Cadance, and Discord are her friends.
4: She could have been speaking from the point of view of the cartoon itself, where even if Twilight is immortal and they’re not, she won’t outlive them because the show will end long before any of them reach old age.
5: She could be immortal, but some event before the end of the show removes said immortality somehow.
Finally, I have no idea why you say birds are “higher-order”, if spiders are not. Regardless, the morals that matter are the ones in-universe (not the ones in other magical settings), and the casual way that Luna did it means that at least for non-sapient beings, creating life is not a taboo in MLP at all.
i don’t mean in a biological sense, as in “biology scientist that define our words mean this or that” i meant regular random people.
also this isn’t an unborn baby chick, it’s a born baby chick
that’s the mistaken assumption people would make. but in fact, apple seeds are as alive as unborn baby chicks.
I thought that was extremely clever of them.
i am pretty sure when someone says “life” they are talking about things with a brain that can move on its own.
I didn’t know that.
actually… no.
she didn’t.
apples are fertilized fruits. they have live seeds in them. seeds that have embryos in them, just like eggs.
Assumptions? Fwelin’s argument is “We don’t know how the sun/moon work in Equestria, so therefore Celestia/Luna’s powers might be unimpressive.” That’s a baseless assumption. It would be like saying “We don’t really know how much gravity Earth has in the DC Universe so Superman’s strength isn’t necessarily very powerful.” The whole freaking point of showing them being able to raise/lower the sun/moon is to demonstrate their level of power and importance. He further assumes that because Celestia said in The Crystalling that she’d never seen a natural-born Alicorn that that somehow further reduces her and Luna’s position of power.
Then he uses this to springboard off into “Twilight is probably equally powerful as Celestia/Luna” and “Twilight is immortal.” Twilight’s power is not equal to Celestia or Luna. Tell me with a straight face that Starlight, who matched Twilight spell-for-spell in The Cutie Re-Mark, could take on Celestia or Luna and hold her own. Because that’s what you’re saying if you think Twilight and the two princesses are of equal power.
As for that “meaningless creator”, that was Meghan McCarthy, one of the main writers for the series who’s been around since the beginning, and who is currently working on the movie. She was intentionally vague because she had to be. But it’s still something versus putting 0 and 0 together and calling it 1.
The root of the problem was never “How can Twilight do it?” but creating life from a magic spell, especially so frivolously, seems rather wrong to do. My comment on Luna being able to do it was simply waving that incident off because 1. It’s Luna and the ability for her to do so isn’t surprising, 2. It was spiders. When you start creating higher-order lifeforms, that’s when it seems sketchy. That’s the kind of magic that is usually extremely frowned upon or outright prohibited in stories with magical worlds.
And that part spun-off into a mini-debate about the value of life. Where Fwelin basically expressed the opinion that unless it was intelligent and could hold a conversation with you, it wasn’t worth shit. Since that’s bordering on personal philosophy and could very easily spin-off into religion, I simply let him have his opinion, and dropped it.
aren’t you the one who is just doing the assumption? Fwelin argument is, that we shouldn’t make such a baseless assumption based on tropes and vague sentences and words of creators that are basically meaningless in a show with exchangeable writers and directors.
So “Are Celestia/Luna better at magic than Twilight?” The answer is “we don’t know”
thus the root of the problem, of Luna creating Life, is not a “She can do it because is Luna, but twilight is different” it’s rather a “We have seen both Luna and Twilight do it”
This is literally going nowhere because your arguments are thus:
“We don’t know every detail about the universe in the show therefore none of it matters. A vague statement that could mean multiple things supports my statement while a statement I consider vague that opposes my opinion does not therefore it’s invalid.”
I’ll leave it on this. The quote from The Crystalling is even more vague. Not seeing another Alicorn born could just as well mean Celestia and Luna weren’t born because they ARE gods, as much as it could imply they became Alicorns rather than always being one. Or, it could mean they’ve never seen one born in their time, and it has nothing to do with how they came about.
You’re taking your finger and using it to weigh down the scale on your end. You’re taking an assumption and putting it with another assumption and trying to make it outweigh an actual statement, and justify it because it’s your opinion.
Unfortunately, the amount of calories of the food exceed from the amount of calories required for the transfiguration spell
Edited
X is a trope is not an argument that something is true, because tropes are not required to be followed. Regardless, even if they were following the trope, absolutely no part of it describes the gap between them and the next strongest.
As the sun and moon explicitly do not work like the real ones, it means we know almost nothing about them, and thus we cannot judge how difficult it is to move them. For all we know, the Equestrian sun and moon are 100 feet wide and only weigh a few dozen tons (or less), and Twilight could easily do it herself if she was experienced in it. Saying “they can move the sun, so they’re impossibly strong” is inherently flawed in such a setting.
Yes they are, which means that we cannot see what they truly intend. There is absolutely no way to know whether or not she is unable to say that Twilight isn’t immortal, or whether that is what she thinks at all.
Also, there are about dozen other possibilities where her statement doesn’t conflict with Twilight being immortal. “She won’t outlive her friends” is ridiculously vague. For all we know, Twilight IS immortal, and she’s been prevented by Hasbro from either confirming or deconfirming it.
No, I’m saying that her statement IS a zero, because of how purposefully vague it is. In addition, the statement in The Crystalling would be at least a 0.5, as it’s a lot stronger than said twitter post.
Edited
The leaders thing is more of a symbolic statement. Their position is an indication of their power, it’s a trope. Stuff like that is kept in mind when stories are written. I’m not saying because they’re the rulers it means they’re the most powerful beings in the world, but positions and titles do come into play in stories. They were originally intended to be titled as Queens, but Disney has established that “Queens are evil, while Princesses are good”, and forced Faust to change their titles.
You’re arguing because we don’t know the exact quantifiable amount of magic in that world that we can’t guess that raising and lowering the sun and moon are impressive, hard feats. Unicorns used to do it. In large numbers. Not singularly. It was a group-effort. How large a group we don’t know, maybe even all of them.
Lots of companies are avoidant when it comes to painting themselves into a corner in case they need to change something. Being one of the main writers of the show, I will forgive her for not going into detail about it. But her position gives her answer legitimacy, however weak you see it, and it’s still an answer regardless if you like it or not. It still leaves me greater proof than your assumptions based on an episode. If Twilight will not outlive her friends only two assumptions can be made. She either has a normal lifespan, or all of her friends will be turned into Alicorns as well (a theory which was given serious thought to back in the day.)
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this, because you’re still trying to say a 0 beats a 1, or any positive integer. You’re claiming your assumptions trump a statement from one of the main writers. BTW, it’s also not the only time they’ve commented on this, it’s just the easiest example to pull out.
Again, the movie should clear up a lot of this.
Edited
No, the first episode did absolutely nothing to spell out how powerful they are. Them being the leaders means nothing by itself, nor does raising and lowering the sun in a super magical universe where we have no idea how difficult such a feat is, especially since they definitely don’t work like the real sun and moon, and also since unicorns used to do it. Also, “godlike” doesn’t mean anything by itself; from the perspective of normal ponies, I could call Twilight and Starlight godlike, too, and it’d be no less accurate, especially since godhood doesn’t actually imply anything about power. All actual evidence points towards Celestia and Luns not being that much more powerful than ponies like Twilight.
The Crystalling is itself a piece of evidence that I gave you, and even if there the episode’s statements technically have a loophole that leaves Celestia and Luna being born alicorns as still a possibility, it’s worth more than a purposfully avoidant twitter post. If she had said “no, Twilight is not immortal”, I would have accepted her being mortal as canon unless the show contradicted it, but her post as it is is worth essentislly nothing.
Edited
The very first episode of the show laid out how powerful they were. They were the rulers of the land (this counts in storytelling) and literally raised and lowered the sun/moon. They were godlike according to Faust. Even if you discount her since her leaving the show and the writers taking it into another direction, you can’t discount the original intention. Hasbro meddling for additional Alicorn “Princess” toys be damned at this point.
As far as the immortality thing, you realize you’re trying to counter with zero proof of your own? On one side we’ve got no evidence to show that they are immortal. On the other, we’ve got a writer for the show saying they’re not. Even if it’s flimsy to you, it’s still a 1 to your 0. She was dodgy because she had to be. Giving a definitive answer would look bad if Hasbro suddenly decided to tell DHX they needed to take it in another direction.
The Crystalling annoyed me in that regard. It implies either Celestia and Luna weren’t born Alicorns, or that they weren’t born at all. The reality of it is, is Hasbro wanted yet another Alicorn princess to pimp out as a toy.
We’ve got the movie coming up. Leaked info says it deals a lot with Alicorn backstory and the origins of Celestia and Luna. So we’ve got that to look forward to to put a lot of these discussions to rest.
As to your life comment, I’ll let you have your own opinion on that, but I’d like to believe life is a little more sacred regardless of its ability to walk up and talk to you.
Edited
To be fair the entire situation of Twilight’s Kingdom was them scrambling to cover the fact that they had COMPLETELY lost. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were like “Well maybe Discord hasn’t told Tirek about Twilight yet since he hasn’t gone after first.” and then came up with an excuse about why Twilight is best suited for taking on the magic afterwards, both to put their own minds and Twilight’s vaguely at rest.
“Being” an elememt bearer doesn’t give antmy benefits when you’re not using them. Cadance was saying that since Twilight was skilled enough to be named the bearer of magic, she had the best chance of being able to pull it off, not that her being the element of magic itself let her do it.
By skill, I was referring to aptitude (the speed and ease at which you pick up and use a concept), not her knowledge or current ability, which the sisters are almost certainly superior in due to their much greater experience.
Edited
It’s not the “worf effect” if said character was never established to be as strong as fans think they are. Celestia and Luna might be the most powerful ponies in the show, but there is absolutely nothing in the show implying that the gap between them and the strongest normal ponies is very large. It’s not Worfing if said Celestis lost to a love-buffed Cbrysalis because she’s actually weaker than her.
Like I said in my earlier post, that twitter post has many different possible meanings other than “Twilight isn’t immortal”, and the fact that shs literally dodged the question is extremely suspicious. We also have the implication in The Crystalling thag Celestia and Luna weren’t born as alicorns, and the fact that writers have contradicted twitter posts like that in the.past.
If we found life on another planet, people would be excited because it’s proof that it arising on Earth isn’t a once in a universe event (and that it makes finding other sapient life somewhere that much more plausible), not because life by itself is sacred or meaningful.