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This weeks Friendship Lesson
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“Fine by me”
Good.
Edited
I thought I made it clear I am only placing partial fault on Sunset’s actions.
You’re still not understanding. Even if Sunset and the humane 6 had no idea who Wallflower was or what she looked like because of Wallflower’s use of the memory stone, they still should have been aware of the existence of an individual by the name of “Wallflower”. Yet even that still manages to elude them. Moreover, despite no memory wipe taking place, they still manage to forget her literally minutes after Sunset interacted with her.
I can believe that. However, the situation with Wallflower is a different. With a Yearbook Committee, the members have to submit physical work or otherwise make a physical contribution. They can’t get away with just sitting, doing nothing, and then going home. In the opening scene, we see Wallflower trying to get Sunset’s attention in order to deliver the collected and tallied “superlative” votes to her. This suggests Sunset or Rarity is actually delegating tasks to her and then expecting her to report back the results. Even with no memory of Wallflower, Sunset and Rarity would still be expecting to hear back from a fellow member by the name of “Wallflower”.
Just because my interpretation of events is different from yours doesn’t make mine far-fetched. I am not suggesting outright headcanon of fanfic material.
What Sunset learned from Rainbow Rocks was that you must be confident in yourself and willing to make the effort in order to win back the trust of those you have previously wronged. Those whom she was not mean to but ignored instead were not addressed in any way. Wallflower did not acquire the memory stone until sometime after Friendship games and did not start wiping memories more frequently until even later; Sunset had all the time up to then to reconcile with Wallflower.
On a daily basis, yes. You have previously claimed that I wanted Sunset to be friendly with “every stranger at school” (which is false). You’re not making any sense either by changing your story like that. I don’t have any strong desire to have this discourse go on. I already mentioned in previous comment that I was willing to accept your offer of agreeing to disagree.
First, I’m not playing the blame game on Sunset; I’ve already made it clear several times that I only see her as part of the problem. Wallflower does admittedly go by unnoticed by most. However, Sunset isn’t exactly pulling her weight and making much of an effort to remember her either. She somehow manages to forget Wallflower just mere moments talking with her and literally leaves her in the dark.
When did we ever see her destroying physical evidence?
Fine by me.
Nice bait mate XD.
@cloudkicker108
Will you please make up your mind whether you are placing fault on Sunset’s actions or not.
You keep spinning your wheels about how Sunset should know about Wallflower in the year book club, and the other even more observant main characters like Pinkie as well, even though it’s been explained to you half a dozen times. Of course they knew she was in the club…except when she didn’t want them too. The humane 7 probobly talked with her dozens of times prior to the movie, but she admitted she erased many of her awkward interactions.
As a former president of a college club, I can absolutely assure you gods honest truth that many clubs require very little paperwork or evidence of a person’s existence beyond meeting participation with the exception of the president and vice president. If you erased the interactions and memories folded around any things she did or made, there would be no trace of her.
Your insistence otherwise is simply a headcanon of yours that you are very insistent upon, that didn’t match the movie.
Honestly, I’m not see even sure why you are applying hit-or-miss assumptions on a magical memory artifact on a show, an artifact designed for subterfuge. It’s a complete act in futility. At this point you might as well just write a Fanfic of how you wanted the special to go.
Sunset knew the distinction between being nice and simply being not mean just fine, genius. She’s known that since the 2nd movie, and knowing it wouldn’t of helped her due to the instant indifference caused by the memory wipes. The point of the revalation was realizing how even not being mean was still effecting someone like Wallflower, giving Sunset enough understanding of her. There was no moral negligence on Sunset’s part at all that caused Wallflower to turn villain. She simply understood her and thus had a better chance of fixing things with her.
“Just the students and the staff.”
That…that’s basically everyone who walks into school on a daily basis. X_X Why are you making less sense as this convo goes on? WHY do you want this to go on?
When you say the Sunset not knowing about Wallflower is part of the problem, what does that even mean? Are you talking about the Sunset as a character, or the writers? Cause if the writers want to introduce a character that is easily unnoticed even without equestrian magic, that fine. Its relatable to some. If your talking abut Sunset as a character, first address freakin Pinkie not knowing who she is before trying the blame game on Sunset.
….
Also, she seemed pretty insistent on destroying physical evidence personally as well as deleting memories through out the episode. Her espionage skills were not half bad.
Good, we agree to disagree. See ya.
Dude, @cloudkicker108 ‘s reasoning is pretty simple and easy to follow, you having difficulty hearing what you don’t want to hear does not change that. Your apparent attempts to rewrite things to depict Sunset in the most flattering light possible (after saying you want to stop the discussion rather than just admitting that you were wrong…), however, don’t really hold up under scrutiny. The only one who isn’t making sense in this conversation is you.
Agreed. Sorry to hear about that.
@CronoM
I’m not. Despite what Wallflower thought, Sunset is clearly a changed person, and while she might not have given the best impression to Wallflower, Sunset obviously wasn’t trying to get on her nerves.
As I’ve mentioned multiple times before, while Sunset might not be able to remember any interactions with Wallflower (either because of the memory stone or Wallflower just being Wallflower), she still should have been aware of Wallflower’s existence at the very least. As the president of the yearbook committee, Sunset should know the names of everyone working under her (Unless of course the yearbook committee is the size of a corporation, which I highly doubt).
First, I never said she had to be friendly with every single person to walk into CHS. Just the students and the staff. Second, I am not laying the blame entirely on Sunset. I am simply pointing out that the catalyst for Wallflower’s actions are a combination of both Wallflower’s own misguided thoughts & actions and Sunset failing to understand the distinction between not being mean and being nice.
While behavior that like that certainly doesn’t help Wallflower’s case (and probably only made things worse), it still doesn’t explain why Sunset can’t even remember Wallflower as a member of her yearbook committee.
If that’s what you wish, then I will be happy to comply.
@CronoM
Just because you don’t perfectly understand my line of logic doesn’t make me insane. The fact Sunset doesn’t know Wallflower exists is part of the problem. Even if she doesn’t have a face to attach it to, Sunset should be aware of a person by the name of “Wallflower”, as that individual works in the very club she runs.
This isn’t just a problem of them knowing absolutely nothing about Wallflower; Sunset and the humane 6 somehow didn’t even know this individual existed.
Would you stop it with the claims of insanity on my part? Yes, damage in that context isn’t entirely Sunset’s fault, but taking the time to make sure she isn’t inadvertently causing damage anyway–when she is already actively mending the damage with everyone else–does fall on her shoulders.
And I agree with that. Sunset as a Karma Houdini is purely an invention of Wallflower’s mind.
Why are you trying to move the goal posts? I’m specifically referring to the humane 6’s recollection of Wallflower before she wipes their memories of post-reformation Sunset. None of what you said refutes the point I was making; Yes, the memory stone can alter memories, but there is no indication whatsoever that it can destroy physical objects. Unless Wallflower has been actively destroying all traces of herself, the humane 6 should be at least aware that Wallflower is a member of their yearbook committee, either from the club roster or work Wallflower has submitted. Yet they can’t even seem to remember that.
First this still has nothing to do with the quote you are responding to. Second, the memory stone didn’t leave any edited memories. It simply removed, or erased, the presence of Sunset from each of the humane 6’s recollections. The gaps are automatically filled in by their brains. Research has shown that brains will do that to reconcile discrepancies.
O_o
…whaaaat?
Okay, I think this conversation needs a timeout soon, cause your last repsonse took a left turn into ‘wth’-ville.
…and that nobody knew she even existed, something the entire school was guilty of! Thus, not Sunset nor even Pinkie could form a good relationship with her because they never had time to grow to like her.
Yes, but not in terms of fault obviously. That’s an insane line of logic someone with a similar lack of therapy as Wallflower would rationalize. Damage through non-intentional, non-interaction doesn’t mean it is any fault of theirs. If she wasn’t even on Pinkie’s radar when she was in a one person gardening club, there was no way for Sunset to be any more responsible for making her feel better or worse.
That’s what I’ve been saying this whole time! She has issues, and Sunset is the ultimate karma houdini and villain in her vision. And only in her vision.
((Why are you contradicting your own questions?))
Gee, that is a puzzle. Its ALMOST as if she admitted to using a memory stone even before she turned to villainy, a method that’s very purpose is to leave almost no evidence, and in the hands of someone already innately skilled in leaving no notable impact on people or her surroundings.
OH WAIT! That is exactly what happened!
Of course it left no evidence! Human Twilight couldn’t even remember who stopped her from being a demon forever. That’s a big gaping whole for her core reason for even being at Canterlot high and having friends, or even not being a DEMON.
(facepalm) The memory stone didn’t just erase memories, Cloudkicker. It was far, FAR more powerful then that. It edited memories of people out and left in edited memories in its place leaving no trace. Anything that wasn’t a sufficient bread crumb of contradiction would be automatically written away by their edited memories for a different explanation.
Now, it can be used to actually ERASE memories, hence the final scene where Sunset gets basically mind #%^@ed, but that method is more for pure harm then secrecy. It was an extreme method even she regretted while doing it.
ALL of of her own creations? I completely agree. If so then why are you still arguing the opposite? I’m confused.
SELF. SABOTAGE.
The moral in my opinion was nearly perfect in a self awareness type of understanding, instead of a mundane blame game your trying to paint.
Also, while I of course agree with you that the above picture over simplifies the message, you are hardly one to talk.
You are literally.
Blaming Sunset.
For not being friendly with every stranger at school.
At their very first interaction or knowledge of them.
At least by MEMORY.
(Also, this is just a sidenote, but I feel it at least needs to be said. Her method of appearing (seemingly) out of nowhere and claiming she had been there the whole time, even though none of their memories could confirm this (despite it likely being true), made her overly suspicious. She was basically enhancing the chances of indifference or uncertainty being the responce with her method of (first memory) introduction. More self sabotage.)
——
Our mindsets on this matter have diverged so greatly that I can’t even comprehend your line of thinking. That’s the point where its best to just agree to disagree. I know what you believe, and what I said above and before is what I believe. Even though I’m a participant this time, I would like to referee this conversation to a close anyway. I don’t want to talk about this anymore, were just repeating ourselves. Let’s just agree to disagree.
Sunset probably should have given some attention to Wallflower, it would have shown that she is a better person than basically everyone else at the school, considering this was something even the best of the other students was unable to do.
I do not deny the value of the lesson, I know better than most of the price of not giving girls like Wallflower the attention she needs. I had a girl just like her in my class back when I was in high school, regretfully I got news that she committed suicide a few years after we both graduated, I can’t help thinking that if I talked to her back in the days we were classmates. This could have been prevented. I do feel genuine guilt that I never tried to help this girl, which could be why I do really empathise with Wallflower. In addition to how much I like Sunset
It is her responsibility when she’s actively trying to get on everyone’s good side. She acts nicely to all the other students but stops at Wallflower. Her reasoning for this? Because she wasn’t mean to Wallflower back when she was a bully. That’s faulty thinking at best. Anyone can tell you that just because you haven’t interacted with someone doesn’t mean you haven’t hurt them in some way. For Wallflower, it felt like she was so worthless and so far below all the other students that Sunset didn’t even want to bother with bullying her.
Even without the influence of the memory stone, Sunset and the humane 6 were already having trouble remembering Wallflower. They forget about her literally minutes after she reintroduce a herself to Sunset, despite no evidence of a memory wipe taking place. Moreover, even if they couldn’t remember Wallflower as an individual, they still should have been aware of her existence. As a member of the Yearbook Committee for a year now, she would have been on the staff roster and submitting work.
No one’s denying she made matters worse for herself with the memory stone. However, that still does not explain why she was completely foreign to Sunset and the humane 6. As I mentioned above, they should have at the very least been aware that there existed someone by the name of Wallflower who was also on their yearbook committee, even if they have absolutely no idea what she looks like.
I do agree that Wallflower’s incorrect conclusions about Sunset and her deep hatred for Sunset were all her own creations. However, even if she wasn’t directly responsible, Sunset still played a crucial role in Wallflower’s descent. Had Sunset gone out of her way to treat Wallflower with kindness like she has with everyone else, this entire incident could have been avoided.
I guess my ultimate point here is that while the moral wasn’t perfectly executed in the special, this post is still unfairly oversimplifyong the situation and incorrectly characterizing the lesson.
Edited
Which wasn’t mistakenly on Sunset’s part at all. Something to to be more aware of, sure, but nothing she actually did wrong considering the circumstances. She didn’t do anything wrong to her that everybody else didn’t also do. It isnt her responsibility to notice people nobody else notices either.
Once Wallflower joined the yearbook club and had the stone, it became a different situation. She was NOW in proximity with the one she envied/hated the most, but also with friends impossible not to notice her like Pinkie or Fluttershy. Yet, she was not forming any bonds or memories with them, and thus was likely erasing awkward interactions constantly with them. Each reset interaction with Sunset was going to be neutral, cause, as a lot of us have pointed oit, erasing memories is not conducive to forming bonds and relationships other then indifference…one needs time to form feelings about a person beyond indifference, which Wallflower did not understand she was unwittingly denying Sunset and the others, thus making her assessment of Sunset pretty much bogus.
Wallflower was being entirely self sabotaging at that point, even though her experiances before the yearbook club were non artificial. (You don’t need to keep repeating it, we know her isolation before the stone was non artificial, but it doesn’t matter even though it does in her head, everyone was guilty of being indifferent to her. It does not deny the different situation while in the yearbook club)
Exactly. This had nothing do with Sunset on a personal level at all. This was all about Wallflower’s issues, how her issues worsened in a self destructive manor with the stone, and how Sunset became the villain in her mind that she could expose. It was all Wallflower’s issues, nothing else.
Her skewed perspective was a result of years of simply being unnoticed or treated indifferently by everyone including Sunset, knowing about Sunset and having it be the ultimate contradiction to her, and a series of magical resets with her yearbook club who didn’t know her at all that formed fake proof in her mind about Sunset.
Edited
I was pointing out that Wallflower’s struggle with being noticed was not solely the result of using the stone (as you suggested) and has been an issue for her for quite a while now. Sunset’s ignorance of her stood out in particular because of Sunset’s heel-face turn. Even though she was trying to be nicer to everyone, Sunset still treated Wallflower exactly the same; it seems Sunset mistakenly believed that since she didn’t treat Wallflower with any meanness but largely ignored her instead, she never hurt Wallflower in any way. From Wallflower’s perspective, though, Sunset ignoring her isn’t just because she doesn’t take notice of her (as is the case with everyone else); Sunset, in her eyes, is intentionally exhibiting the same behavior as back in the bully days towards her. This, then, becomes proof in Wallflower’s mind that she hasn’t really changed and thus doesn’t deserve all the attention she is receiving.
Which means what conclusion am to draw from this? Clearly it is not a character flaw in Sunset because no one else noticed her either, the only rational explanation is that Wallflower is just naturally good at not being noticed, an ability that can be extremely useful for someone who seeks a career as a theif, assassin or spy, but quite a big hindrance when it comes to making friends
Which means what conclusion am to draw from this? Clearly it is not a character flaw in Sunset because no one else noticed her either, the only rational explanation is that Wallflower is just naturally good at not being noticed, an ability that can be extremely useful for someone who seeks a career as a theif, assassin or spy, but quite a big hindrance when it comes to making friends
Wallflower didn’t find the memory stone until sometime after the Friendship Games, yet she was being already ignored by everyone, including Sunset and the humane 6, well before then.
@CronoM
Except the memories of the humane 6 weren’t wiped in the yearbook office, and yet they still managed to completely forget about her, literally leaving her in the dark. Not only does Wallflower have no reason to wipe that particular interaction from their memories, but there was also no indication that a memory wipe took place. We didn’t see any memory strands being pulled out from the humane 6, as is usually the case when the memory stone is used.
Edited
Exactly.
When she started using the memory stone for non-villainous but unintentionally self-destructive purposes, the awkward moments and indifferent moments kept on piling up and up even in the presence of characters like Pinkie Pie or Fluttershy. It was quite clear how she was destroying herself even when in a group of people that would never fail to notice her. While her past had little interaction with the Humane 7 and her own ability to not be noticed is non-artificial, her present was a prison of her own creation. The second she started taking awkward interactions away, she started herself on a cycle of self destruction that needed a clear villain to make herself feel empowered. It was made very clear she was not in the right state of mind to see the connection.
Edited
Sunset stood out the most to Wallflower because Sunset was trying to win back the favor of the school yet still chose to ignore her. Apparently in Sunset’s mind, not actively being mean to someone implies you haven’t hurt them. Yet anyone who’s gotten onto someone else’s bad side can tell you that the silence often cuts deeper than the rage.
Again, we don’t know that Wallflower wiped every single memory as opposed to just the minor ones or the most embarrassing ones. Moreover, even if Sunset had no memories of interacting with Wallflower, she still should have been aware of Wallflower’s membership to the yearbook club, either from the club roster or work Wallflower has submitted. Yet even that simple fact somehow eludes her.
While jealousy likely did play a part in Wallflower’s disdain for Sunset in particular (watching someone go from being largely reviled to being celebrated while you continue to remain unnoticed by everyone couldn’t have been easy for Wallflower), it was not the only source of her resentment. Sunset’s indifference was proof in Wallflower’s mind that Sunset was still evil and a bully at heart. To her, Sunset wasn’t just oblivious; she was purposefully channeling the same behavior from before.
Not exactly true. Wallflower didn’t get her hands on the memory stone until sometime after the friendship games, and before then she was already going by completely unnoticed by Sunset and the other 6 (and the rest of the school for that matter).
This I do agree with. Like I said above, it must have been teeth-grinding for someone like Wallflower to watch a individual who was as mean as Sunset get that kind of treatment.
I would argue Wallflower’s revenge plot was all about Sunset. Her plans don’t address or remedy her personal struggles at all.
The context was born not only Sunset, but the others even Pinkie treating her indifferently. Good or evil, if there are no memories to connect a person with, indifference is the usual default.
None of the Humane 7, not even Pinkie, knew she was in the yearbook club. That doesn’t mean there were never memories, she did admit that she was deleting interactions constantly before she did evil stuff.
But if the original for evil Sunset was (neutral?) indifference, and the other side of the reform story was (neutral?) Indifference, then that’s not good memory experiance… even if she doesn’t realize it’s self inflicting.
What was the reason none of the other 6 knew anything about their fellow yearbook member, that NONE of them were friends with her? It was because she deleted all her interactions with them even before she decided to make the villainy step because she felt the interactions were too awkward.
The ONLY difference between Sunset and the other 6 is that Sunset was evil before, and thus, her indifference became an act of villainy in her head. She needed someone to blame, even though the other 6 were JUST as oblivious on how they should feel about this girl they have very little memory of.
Yes, she had this problem before she had the stone, as I already pointed out, but that was when she was an experianced wallflower with a one person gardening club. Put her in a club with Pinkie, and unless you have a memory erasing stone, your going to be drawn attention to. That’s pretty much a fact.
Evil Sunset barely noticed her, and Good Sunset and the other 6 couldn’t notice her through obviously magical means. Thus, the reactions were the same.
The temptation to erase memories of interactions she felt were awkward must have been staggering for a girl with her psyche, but she had no idea how utterly self destructive it was doing that. It made all of her issues, especially with those more popular then her, more and more severe. Popular mean girl becomes a popular good girl? To a shut in like her, that’s the ultimate karma houdini to an outsider. The perfect target of hate. The revenge was NEVER about Sunset personally, it was about Wallflower’s issues.
Wallflower’s problem with Sunset wasn’t born purely out of bias, though. Sunset herself admitted that her treatment of Wallflower was no different before and after her reformation. Given that context, I can’t blame Wallflower for believing the whole “good girl” routine by Sunset was just a ruse and that Sunset was still malevolent at heart.
I’ve seen this narrative being thrown around after Forgotten Friendship, but we don’t know that’s actually what happened. It’s never explicitly stated or shown in the special. All we know for certain is that she started out erasing only little things and her vengeance on Sunset was her getting “completely carried away”. Moreover, there’s no reason for Wallflower to erase the yearbook office interaction at the start of the special anyhow. Not only is that counterintuitive (the whole reason for Wallflower’s resentment towards Sunset is because Sunset never acknowledges her), but the experience was also clearly far more embarrassing for Sunset than for Wallflower. And as BP #EA87 has so kindly pointed out , this problem of Wallflower’s has been around long before she ever got her hands the memory stone.
Edited
Not quite. While Wallflower wasn’t completely right (it’s not like Sunset really was a bully anymore), she wasn’t completely wrong, either, as shown by Sunset never giving her a moment’s consideration until Trixie points it out. This isn’t helped by Sunset nearly bullying someone into thinking she’s not a bully anymore, or the way that, when one looks closely, Sunset tends not to give a damn about anyone but herself and her closest friends even since Rainbow Rocks.
She was having trouble being noticed before she found the stone. Her actions didn’t help her, but they didn’t start the problem, either, and it was spelled out that while Sunset wasn’t mean to her, she wasn’t exactly nice to her, either. Wallflower’s first onscreen appearance is proof of this, no one even noticing her there (which is shown to happen often, before any sort of awkward moment that might spur her to use the stone) and Sunset turning out the lights while Wallflower is still in the room.
Thus, the above image is an utterly nonsensical misrepresentation of what actually happened and what the point of the special actually was.
Which is more her problem then Sunset’s, as her outlook on reformed Sunset is egregiously biased due to envy and another issue which I’m about to address…
A good moral to be sure, but the experiances that led to her villainy was partly self inflicted. Don’t get me wrong, I feel sorry for her for not being able to stand out at first, but eventually she found the stone and started erasing all her awkward interactions with people even on the yearbook club she joined to make friends …which was pretty much, every interaction, even in said yearbook club. :/
People in general, not just Sunset, have trouble being overly friendly to someone who is being a blankspot in their memory. People need time to warm up to people, and before she became a villain but after she found the stone, she kept on erasing awkward interactions that IRONICALLY would of led to the Humane 7 warming up to their fellow yearbook member.
Hell if you want proof of excessive memory meddling, even Pinkie didn’t know her, and she knows the birthday of everyone in school.
The moral was there, but it was more sprung from her own neurosis and magical meddling then any of Sunset’s actions. But that was sort of the point. It wasnt a moral to be learned by any of the main characters, but a moral to be simply more self aware of as a whole…granted, most people don’t have the power to erase all your awkward interactions that can actually be beneficial, but that was a case of a mindset made worse by an abused magical object.
@Unknownpony
your current filter.