@Ebalosus
Agreed!

@CronoM
But the first two seasons sucked. Lauren Faust is a terrible writer.

@Binkyt11
@Binkyt11
Except Twilight was never allowed to make her own decisions or choices.

@nightshroud96
Well, at least we know that Twilight ended up as a miserable failure of a Princess by the era of G5.

@CronoM  
It stung badly too on how Luna was wasted in the finale as well.  
She started the show off with her story, I feel like she could have gotten something in this finale.  
Something to make things come full circle.

@nightshroud96  
You won’t hear any argument from me about that. I couldn’t agree more.
 
The second they decided they wanted to railroad Twilight over a long period of time into the being the only character that really mattered in the plot and the future Princess of all Equestria, obviously with no room for Luna, many other characters simply became obstacles. And one of the biggest obstacles, and possibly the most shafted by far, was Luna herself. Luna, the main focus of how the entire series even started.
 
Luna was so utterly wasted by the writers its absolutely disgusting.
 
-She’s a monarch, she’s the younger sister of the practical goddess of the world for the last millenia, she’s experianced villainous thoughts and tendencies, despite her own power corrupting her into a new being she made the active choice to go completely darkside with no magical artifacts corrupting her further without her full choice, she’s a walking textbook of how people lived and how many incidents were dealt with a thousand years ago as if they were yesterday for her, she’s the second most powerful pony on the planet.
 
-The reasons for her becoming Nightmare Moon weren’t as black and white as Celestia liked being good and Luna liked being evil, far from it, there was a social and family bond that broke due to both sides that caused Luna to go dark. How did Celestia’s role in Luna becoming Nightmare Moon effect her future relationships? Her relationship with Sunset, who took a similar path? Her relationship with Twilight, which had less give and take due to Twilight’s admiration?
 
-How do people see her as a monarch after 1000 years of being the boogeyman in stories? We only saw how normal citizens reacted to her being simply present. How did reformed Luna’s ideas of leadership differ from Celestia? Would we see Luna become wiser then her wise but flawed older sister? Since Celestia is aloof by nature, would the main 6 learn a lot more from Luna then her on a more personal basis. How would the Mane 6 learn from Luna and how would Luna learn from each of the Mane 6?
 
Even without main character status, Luna could of been 50x more involved in the series then she actually was and there were so many easy avenues to make it good and feel natural. Instead, Luna’s entire existence in the show was a major casualty of several incredibly forced narratives.

@CronoM  
Pretty much the writers never let Luna truly make up/redeem herself for the past.  
Like not being able to make up for causing Celestia to be left with the burden of protecting Equestria alone for a 1000 years. Left Equestria hanging due to being sent to the moon as NMM.
 
Since her return from the moon, she either fell flat on her face or gets sidelined when some villain attacks.
 
It just.. resent how the writers handled her during crisis stuff..

@nightshroud96  
How do I feel about the Brown-nosing Yes Pony and least emotional independent and least developed of the Mane 6 being rushed into taking over a Thousand year monarchy when the younger sister and rightful heir after Celestia, Luna, decided to split with her sister despite having a ton to prove after being both absent AND evil for so long?
 
Not great. For reasons that are pretty self explanatory.
 
@Ebalosus  
A good Twilight Sparkle overall storyarc doesnt actually exist in any meaningful way in the canon either. She starts off as a student beholden to every whim of Celestia, and her story ends with her entire life direction being completely beholden to Celestia’s whim.
 
Of course a continuous Faust run show is as theoretical as a piece of a 3D printed gun. When talking about bad writing in shows, one inevitably has to consider avenues in which a show can or could have done better. Thats completely natural. One thing that Faust was very outspoken about was avoiding very dated, Disney-esque princess cringe. The two princesses she introduced, Celestia and Luna, were for all intents and purposes Queens. McCarthy, on the other hand, was all for that cringe, and as a result, among many other things, Twilight barely ever experienced any sense of self discovery unburdened by someone else’s(Celestia’s) wishes.
 
Heck even the movie had enough sense to point out how much of a liability it was having a team leader that was so beholden to someone else that even if she knew the letter of their morals, she would always ignore the spirit of their morals if it meant following Celestia’s directive sooner. Twilight believes in all the moral lessons she’s learned over the years on a cerebral level, but she has no faith in them. All her faith is reserved for Celestia.
 
In short, it’s both easy AND logical to theorize about a different avenue where the main character actually is given a decent storyarc, and thus improves all the story arcs surrounding her presence.

@CronoM
 
Heard that one before, and when said creative type got his way, all we got was a movie about magical space elves and “rural simplicity.” Besides, until we see such “potential stories” or have them described from Faust herself, they don’t mean. It would be like me saying I’ve got an amazing idea for bolt-locking mechanism that can handle 10mm ammo and be 3D-printed, but without a demonstration, it’s just an idea. Same with whatever Faust had planned, as they don’t actually exist in a meaningful way.
 
Also, your claim that S2 was “very good” is laughable given the terminal case of Mass-Effect-2-itis and the likes of MMDW (amongst others). Did Renzetti just not care?

@CronoM  
What are your thoughts on the whole “Royal Sisters retiring and giving Twilight the throne despite Luna did not get to rule anywhere near as long as Celestia did” deal there in season 9?

Jesus, people throwing Novellas at each other in here.

@Copper Knight  
“That’s a pretty bold face lie you added there. In season 4, Twilight expressed some discomfort towards her new role but part of that is that she didn’t know what to do.”
 
Because it was a decision she would of never chosen for herself. Of course she was uncomfortable with a life decision completely alien to anything she would of chosen on her own.
 
“In season 5 she fully embraced her role as a princess”
 
Things that didn’t happen for 200 Alex. She acted as a princess because Celestia chose it for her and that was now her only avenue in life now. Celestia declared her a princess the second she got wings. Twilight had no say.
 
The Pony Version of Twilight Sparkle is mentally incapable of outright refusing big decisions Celestia makes for her. In no realm of reality is that ever considered ‘a choice’.
 
“Nobody expects to become a princess.”
 
A princess, traditionally, is someone born of royal blood. Unlike being a knight or hero, its not an active decision or something you earn. Normally. And even a princess can abdicate the throne with enough effort. But Celestia’s decision is the ONLY reason that Twilight is a princess, because Celestia MADE her a princess without her volition.
 
Exactly how long are you going to do this song and dance of denying the most basic continuity facts?
 
“Especially one that changes you into one of the most powerful versions of your species.”
 
By Celestia’s choosing alone did that occur to her. Being an alicorn could mean anything or it could be nothing. The show didn’t even care to show how Cadence became an Alicorn. It was THAT unimportant. But the shows insists both she and Twilight are princesses? Smells like bad writing to me.
 
“Plus Twilight had no ambition from the start beyond learning.”
 
A bald faced lie to undermine Twilight’s true character. Unicorn Twilight and Sci Twi were essentially the same besides Pony Twi’s obsession to please Celestia. Are you saying that neither of them had personal ambition? You must really think the absolute worst of Twilight.
 
She wanted to experiment with science, she wanted to experiment with magic, she wanted to do research on all forms of studies. VERY NOBLE ENDEAVORS. The idea that you look down upon those endeavors is quite disgusting.
 
“Twilight never would have made friends either”
 
How convenient it was just a day before the element of magic needed to meet up with the other 5 elements to save Nightmare Moon/Princess Luna that Celestia encouraged her to make friends in Ponyville. Whether it be by design or plot contrivance is anyone’s guess, but Twilight, who worships the ground under Celestia’ feet, could of easily influenced by Celestia to make friends in Canterlot.
 
“And Twilight has a predisposition towards leadership”
 
Organization is not the same as leadership. Twilight Sparkle does not have any charisma, but she does have good organizational skills. Nearly half of her episodes that what she has high in academic knowledge and planning, she constantly fails in common sense and social cues. Its her very character in a nutshell.
 
“By the way, there’s something to be said for leaders who show strong leadership skills but don’t desire to rule. Some seek greatness, some have it thrust upon them-” An ill fitting cliche I knew you were going to use. Are you trying to make the laziest argument ever? The worst case scenario’s are often when greatness is thrust upon people who don’t have the capacity for it.
 
Get in the robot Shinji! Does that ring a bell? Greatness was thrust upon him in Evengelion, and that situation didn’t turn out so hot. What about when Megamind gave super powers to the cameraman?
 
Even in more tepid situations, thrusting greatness upon weak willed person can have detrimental effects on their decision making and their psyche as an individual. Despite her encounter with her evil self, Sci Twi is 1000x times more mentally healthy then our nervous wreck of a purple smart princess.
 
“As the series progresses, Twilight grows more independent.”
 
Again, things that didn’t happen for 200 Alex. Even later in the series she was desperate for Celestia’s approval for Starlight’s education, and her hyperdependency absolutely CRIPPLED her decision making for almost the entirety of the MLP movie.
 
The only reason she wants to be a princess throughout the entire series is because she wants to live up to Celestia’s expectations who wants her to be a princess. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
In the episode where Twilight was going to show Starlight’s progress to Celestia, Twilight forgoed all personal feelings or ideas of personal growth for Starlight just so that she could fake a good presentation of her apprentice towards Celestia. Nothing else mattered at the time. She didn’t care about Starlight’s feelings about Trixie. Those, at the time, were an OBSTACLE.
 
Why? Because even as a ‘princess’, she’s hyperdependent to Celestia. She wants to be a good princess because being a good princess would make Celestia very happy.
 
“but that her decision to do so and her ability to do so was independent of Celestia.”
 
Did you forget what was her Princess title? The one that Celestia and Twilight approved of for her? Oh yeah, that’s right…
 
….The Princess of Friendship. The school is simply an extension of that. She has the role of Princess of Friendship, thus, she must help teach the nation….friendship.
 
“That isn’t hyperdependency, that’s basic nature”
 
Her basic nature IS hyperdependency. It was hyperdependency that forced Twilight to wait until the very last second until she accepted help to stop Sombra while her brother and everyone was on the verge of death. It was hyperdepenecy that forced her to forgo loyalty when Celestia told her not to tell her friends about the magic transfer and Discord during the Tirek incident. It was hyperdependency that drove her to ignore all extraneous activities that didn’t fit perfectly with following Celestia’s mission. Twilight literally had a panic attack when Starlight told her that she did something that displeased Celestia with the cutie mark switch.
 
We all have our mentors, and us normal folk don’t act like that around them. If that’s your life experience, that that is very, VERY odd. We humans embrace free thinking.
 
People who embrace free thinking ENJOY having different avenue’s than just the expectations set upon us. IDW Twilight YEARNS to have different avenue’s then the expectations set upon her. But not show Twilight. She is fully satisfied with following the path Celestia chose and assigned to her…FOREVER. She has no other ambition beyond that. Meanwhile Sci Twi’s ambitions are limitless and ENTIRELY her own.

@CronoM  
“As a princess working towards Celestia’s expectations. A level of status and expectations she CONSTANTLY regretted and felt uncomfortable in.”
 
That’s a pretty bold face lie you added there. In season 4, Twilight expressed some discomfort towards her new role but part of that is that she didn’t know what to do. In season 5 she fully embraced her role as a princess and what she wanted to be and do as a princess. It had nothing to do with Celestia either. Celestia didn’t even come up most of the time.
 
“The very idea of becoming princess would of never come across Twilight’s mind had Celestia not made her a princess. This is obvious to everyone.”
 
Nobody expects to become a princess. Especially one that changes you into one of the most powerful versions of your species. It never would have come up because Twilight would never even known it was an option. Plus Twilight had no ambition from the start beyond learning. Twilight never would have made friends either if Celestia didn’t push her into it. That’s Twilight’s character - she stays static without a push from outside forces.
 
And Twilight has a predisposition towards leadership as we see most poignantly in Winter Wrap Up and as we see through the series, she constantly leads her friends. She always assumes a leadership role. Oh and hyperdependency? As the series progresses, Twilight grows more independent. That’s a big part of her character arc.
 
By the way, there’s something to be said for leaders who show strong leadership skills but don’t desire to rule. Some seek greatness, some have it thrust upon them.
 
And the idea wasn’t that Twilight needed to be a princess to open a school, but that her decision to do so and her ability to do so was independent of Celestia. You are purposefully boxing Twilight into a dependency role with Celestia with that single statement. Also, being a princess did grant her authority to override Neighsay.
 
And the meeting with Celestia with Starlight is because Celestia is her personal mentor and role model. That isn’t hyperdependency, that’s basic nature. And the last time things went a little awry with Celestia and Luna, Luna turned evil and got banished to the moon for a thousand years; everyone should be a bit worried about that.
 
And Sci-Twi has no special relationship with Celestia. Even if you put Unicorn Twilight in the movie, she would have made the same mistakes. Unicorn Twilight would have been worse in fact. Trying to act like Sci-Twi and Unicorn Twilight are the same character is complete folly anyway - Sci-Twi grew up in a terrible school environment with a dog who could not talk that crippled a great deal of her self confidence and started pushing her to amoral territory. Unicorn Twilight was someone who grew up with a personal mentor and role model that gave her confidence and a talking dragon to help her. At no point is Sci-Twi the same as Unicorn Twilight or Princess Twilight.
 
And the rest of your explanation is utter bull because those things were a problem with regular Twilight as well. You are just projecting moments that happened while she a princess and ignoring Twilight’s many problematic characterizations from the first three seasons.

@Copper Knight  
“ but from season 5 up, Twilight started pushing towards diplomatic relationships with other nations – with and without the map’s help. She and her friends helped build a stronger society within Equestria with their actions while simultaneously building relations outside of it.”
 
As a princess working towards Celestia’s expectations. A level of status and expectations she CONSTANTLY regretted and felt uncomfortable in.
 
“Neither of which had anything to do with Celestia or her desires for Twilight.”
 
Blatent lies for 200, Alex?
 
The very idea of becoming princess would of never come across Twilight’s mind had Celestia not made her a princess. This is obvious to everyone.
 
Unicorn Twilight was a scientist, a magical researcher, a librarian, liked organizing things, loved hanging out with her friends completely on her own terms. She never once had ANY desire for any political or ruling authority. Pony Twilight is naturally hyperdependent, and would not under any character profile make a good kingdom leader. Characters like Celestia, Luna, reformed Sunset have the necessary ego to do so. Sci Twi does not, but simply because she doesn’t have the predisposition for authority. Sci-Twi thankfully doesn’t have Pony Twilight’s mental instability of hyper dependency.
 
And any friendship related request that needed a little amount of advice on was already granted to her as the protege of Celestia as early as Season 1, she never had the desire to rule and was quite content pursuing her OWN interests, not Celestia’s.
 
She was given a library just because she wanted to move to a different town, Celestia could of easily granted her permission to open a school to research and help others with friendship.
 
The very idea that she needed to be a princess to make a formal request to open a school is….INSANE. Ridiculously insane. Is every school founder in the world’s history a secret princess?
 
Long into her “princesshood”, Twilight arranged a meeting with teacher in the DESPERATE plee that Celestia would approve of her progress with Starlight, and went into a near nervous breakdown just because this supposed ‘meeting between two rulers’ was going slightly awry. She wasn’t ready for ‘ruling’ at any point. She’s a hyperdependent bag of nerves and almost the entire fanbase knows this, we’ve been with her for 9 seasons.
 
Unicorn Twilight, like Sci Twi, was more interested and attached to the everyday relationships with her friends and their unique interactions as equals. If we put Sci Twi into Princess Twilight’s position in the MLP movie, she would have all of the Twilight’s natural smarts, but none of Princess Twilight’s crippling drive to please Celestia and complete her duty no matter what, friendship be damned. Twilight Sparkle’s role in the MLP movie was the failed protagonist, the weakest link of the group that would have to look deep into herself to meet the standards of her extraordinary and wise friends.
 
After her princess hood, Spike and RD were one of the few friends able to break down her princess/academic approach to friendship and expose her real feelings on a daily basis. Discord sometimes worked with the other 5 to expose Twilight’s artificial responses because she was becoming too much of a tool, to trigger a true emotional response from the heart, bit by bit.
 
Moondancer of course being the only exception, being able to breakdown all of Twilight’s mental barriers at once, leaving her temporarily as unguarded a person as Sci Twi if not more so. Its no surprise that episode was considered Twilight’s best character episode for the longest time. Despite being the main character, it was one of the few episodes where we actual get some real heart to heart with our little Purple Smart.

@CronoM  
What are you talking about? Season 4 had her be a princess of nothing as she gained confidence and comfortability as her role as a princess, but from season 5 up, Twilight started pushing towards diplomatic relationships with other nations - with and without the map’s help. She and her friends helped build a stronger society within Equestria with their actions while simultaneously building relations outside of it.
 
Neither of which had anything to do with Celestia or her desires for Twilight. It was Twilight’s role as a princess that gave her the authority and autonomy needed to do these things. We are never shown her asking permission for anything she did. Such as opening a school - beyond the law having the EEA, she only went to Celestia for advice, not permission. And she eventually decided to go against the EEA to do her own thing.
 
Unicorn Twilight remained fairly static beyond becoming a better friend and didn’t expand beyond Ponyville and Canterlot. She looked to Celestia for everything and did things based on Celestia telling her to rather than a speaking of equals that they grew into.

@Ihhh  
:)

@CronoM  
What?

@Ebalosus  
Considering all the potential scripts and ideas built in the beginning that we don’t know about and at what time sequence, plus the high standard of quality that Faust set, that is an unverifiable claim. Not to mention the boon of NOT having McCarthy could of been quite an improvement over what we got, had the best writers stayed on for longer with Faust leading them. The first two seasons were basic but very good, and most early seasons of shows are basic. At the very least, the princess twilight narrative was never any part of the positives, and was conceptionally stupid.
 
It’s a shame Twilight’s character had to be latched on with such narrative that discouraged thinking for oneself(see above) and encouraged hyperdependency and forced nepotism(on Celestia’s part). Of course, she was basically princess of nothing for most of the show, so the princess narrative basically just sat in the corner like a giant awkward child that distracted everything.

@CronoM
 
>tfw McCarthy made better MLP than Faust

@Ihhh  
Nah. I’m commenting with my opinion just like everybody else.

@CronoM  
Go away.

Just goes to show there is never an expiration date on terrible, badly written ideas. Not once did it benefit the show in any way, and it only served to isolate Twilight Sparkle further and further away from any sense of independence from Celestia’s choices for her. She remained a brown nosing slave of Celestia’s expectations right to the very end.
 
The only consolation prize is that Sci Twi is a version of Twilight uninhibited from such negative character development.

@Background Pony #6B12  
As I said, it isn’t brought up until someone brings it up.

@Binkyt11
 
Or how in this season Neighsay doesn’t automatically listen to her because she’s a princess, or how Starlight said she isn’t a “princess princess” (which was funny).

@Background Pony #6B12  
Okay. How about Daring Don’t even she meets Daring Do? Or the Cutie Remark when she goes into the past? Or Fame and Misfortune where almost no pony cares to listen to her? Or how about just for a matter of fact anytime they go out on a mission or anywhere as a matter if facts? Most of the time nopony even notices them, let alone worship any of them. The only times it’s usually done to my memory is if someone brings it up that hey look everyone, she’s a princess! Even when it isn’t flat out disrespect of snubbing, most of the time ponies just don’t even care that she is a princess unless it’s brought up a majority of a time. And the same thing applies to the rest of the Name 6, who aside from saving the world— have some important and big jobs as well. Hell, I can even argue that what they did and do are brought up more in show than what Twilight did.

@Binkyt11  
I love how people still constantly trot out one instance from Season 4 to argue that Twilight isn’t treated differently at all, and conveniently ignore all the times ponies practically worship the ground she walks on.