Oh Sunset Look how much you’ve grown  
>>1774666p (merged)

If the internet showed me something, is that if you want to make a successful song, write it as a girl empowering herself, that will do it.

Fly on your way, like an eagle,  
Fly as high as the sun,  
On your way, like an eagle,  
Fly and touch the sun.
 
Iron Maiden-Flight of Icarus

All I want to know is if she’s gonna stick with that outfit. SHE’S SO CUTE!

Fireballer will be so jealous

@biojal  
Like a phoenix burning bright in the sky!

@CronoM  
I fully agree. Technically Phoenix fits the theme better, but seraph both carries it’s own relevant symbolism and keeps the alliteration. More in the spirit of the sunset satan tag.

Anyway, back on topic, one of the reasons I think the Sunset Seraph is so fitting is that both the metamorphosis and symbolism is fitting as a contrast to when she became a demon. Sure, her wings look like a phoenix, but since since alicorns like Celestia have such huge wings in the first place, its kind of hard to tell when Sunset forms such wings made of flames. Also, the fitting alliteration with our tags. We didn’t name Sunset’s evil form Sunset Devil or Sunset Demon for similar reasons. With both the alliteration of Sunset Seraph and the symbolism compared to her last form, the two forms, Sunset Satan and Sunset Seraph, make a nice combo.

@Ereiam  

 
Wasn’t I the one who just said I didn’t want this conversation to continue any further?
 
Anyway, I assure you I wasn’t dismissing his argument because it didn’t match my viewpoint. I was being dismissive because I understandably did not want to discuss this with him for the reasons I outlined. I understand his viewpoint because its what I would get if a bunch of the details and themes of the show sailed past me. I could of pointed out those details, but I already said the reasons why I think it would be a large waste of time, especially considering (shrug) I know there is no easy way of saying ‘I don’t want to reply’ without trying to sound ignorant and cowardly, but when someone writes 2.5 pages with that personality type, its kind of extraordinary circumstances.
 
Hell, he even offered me that option of dismissing his argument, and admitted he might be somewhat obsessed. And as you agreed with me, you wouldn’t ever consider writing 2.5 pages on the subject.
 
You could of just made a separate comment about the above picture, but that obviously wasn’t your entire intent. :/
 

 
That’s okay if you believe that. We both have equally as much chance at being wrong after all. Since you don’t wish to discuss it further any more then I do, no one is forcing you to see my point of view, the same way when you said ‘I hate to break it to you’ without an argument, it didn’t mean much to me either.
 
The reason a bunch of people in the fandom believe differently from you, especially after Rainbow Rocks, is due to the fact a lot of people see a conflict in the overall message due to major events in key episodes and other sources as well. As an example, who would believe that Crystal Empire, an episode where Celestia uses the lives of the Crystal Empire as a test for Twilight, was written by the same writer who wrote a very well written consequence-driven plot for Rainbow Rocks? This isn’t about proving my point, its simply an example of why there is conflict in the main message of the show.
 
Neither of us is going to prove which argument is more likely, and that’s fine with me. All I want to do it drop this argument, just like you.

@Ereiam  
Sorry, allow me to rephrase my last sentence (why can’t we edit comments, goddammit?):  

(There, better.)
 
Anyway, I fail to see how this discussion bears any relevance to Sunset Seraph/Sunset Phoenix, so can we stop here and go back to the more innocuous debate about which of these two nicknames is better, please?

@CronoM  

 
Are you sure you’re not talking about yourself here? Because even as you claim to understand your opponent’s viewpoint, you dismiss him outright as being “gullible and genre-blind” for believing that Twilight is more likely to embrace her role as a princess than reject it. Hate to break it to you, but the way you suscribe to the opposite seems more wrong genre-savvy to me than anything.
 
You may disagree with the way the writers handled Twilight’s settling into her role as a princess but, considering the core message of the show and the direction it took in the last two seasons, it’s unlikely that we’ll see her permanently abdicating any time soon. Like this guy said, it’s only a “magical horse cartoon meant to sell toys” whose target audience is still little girls, not a graphic novel from the Dark Age of Comic Books.
 
Therefore, I’m more inclined to believe his point of view than yours (especially as he does a better job of poking holes in your arguments than you do, even if he could gain by being more concise; one thing I can agree with is that 2 1/2 pages of counter-arguments in a single comment is waaay too much – I almost went TL;DR myself at some point).  
That doesn’t mean you can’t be right, but I don’t believe you are.

0_x…….What the hellllllll……?
 
First off, I’m going to partially take your second line’s advice because GOOD LORD do I not want to even start or even THINK on how tedious it would be to talk to you about this!
 
When I saw you had somehow wrote 2 and a half entire pages, I was hardly fully considering reading all of it, but I DID decide to read your first 6 or so paragraphs to see if you had some balanced, well-thought out points, and then I was pretty much NOPE-nopenopenopenopenopenope-Absolutely NO!  
What I read was some of the most genre-blind, face value and gullible drivel…and yet somehow in well-written, short paragraph form…I’ve ever read. It’s uncanny. I realized that your arguments were so full of holes, I could point out the flaws in entire sections with bulleted points of 1 or 2 sentences each by listing events and scenes during the show that contradict your claims…but of course, I realized the second problem.
 
Second: What kind of person writes 2 and a half pages of argument filled to the brim with  
‘I never considered her doing that’, ‘I never saw something as that’, ‘I never assumed that’ or and similar nonsense?
 
Not someone I wish to talk to talk to!! How about we put it that way!?
 
(_sigh) Do you understand what I’m getting at? A good conversation is one where you’re assured you are talking with an intelligent, open-minded person who will consider your opinions. Those usually end with some common ground agreements, and/or agreeing to disagree. You do NOT want to see red flags that this person is only interested in seeing their point of view very narrowly and has done so for a very long time. And one ESPECIALLY does not want to see 2.5 pages of it, especially if the person is already admitting that nobody might read it. That’s the territory of pure obsession in seeing what you want to see. Even if I pointed out the flaws in your argument, what would even be the point? You would just try to argue around them or put a spin on them because you don’t want to understand that point of view. And me? I actually DO understand your perspective of the topic, but its so gullible and genre-blind its something I would expect it from the me of 12 years ago to say. (not in 2+ pages of course)
 
Sorry if this offends you but please, noooo thank you. See ya.

@CronoM
 
So, I finally had time to put these thoughts together just to clarify my position. Truly sorry for the wall of text.
 
“I’m afraid we view the series and its characters FAAAR too differently”
 
Sure seems so. Almost to the point where I don’t know how to approach this. Feel free to save your time if you feel it’s not worth reading.
 
“Afterall, chessmaster Celestia may actually be wrong”
 
But Celestia’s part was just guiding her student in the right path as best as she could. It was Twilight herself that earned her princesshood, and by definition I never saw alicorn ascension as something that can happen ‘by mistake’, at least as far as the show implied. I always saw it as one of those things in fiction that happens when it’s supposed to.
 
Since the magic that changed Twilight came from her own center/heart, and it was purple while Celestia’s is golden, I assumed Twilight’s transformation naturally occured after she wrote new magic and the Elements blasted her. It was never stated in detail, but I at least never assumed Celestia could just turn anyone into an alicorn at will.
 
So, as I perceive it, if Celestia had been wrong about her student having what it takes, the purple one would simply not have made it - regardless of what Sunbutt thought.
 
“how else do you think Celestia is going to evolve as a character? By being right forever?”
 
I’m not sure Celestia is meant to evolve as a character much? She was definitely designed to be more of a role model and mentor figure to the protagonist and to a lesser extent all ponies. A motherly, wise and kind leader little girls could look up to.
 
And even if she was to grow, she should learn from mistakes SHE made. Unless I’m wrong, Twilight’s princesshood is something she is involved in indirectly, but not something she made happen or was completely under her control.
 
From Luna’s doubt to Discord’s doubt to Spike’s doubt to RD’s doubt
 
As I recall Luna only seemed kinda skeptical in The Crystal Empire part 1, never since, and she sure doesn’t seem to doubt Twilight now. Discord likes to mess with Her Purple Royalness and push her buttons in all possible ways.
 
Spike? He believes in Twilight and takes pride in her like no one else, and he has been nothing but supportive and encouraging of her in this change. Dash too, despite her lack of love for princesshood and at times frustration with it’s intricacies.
 
“if Twilight learned to carve her own destiny”
 
She is, as I see it.
 
Early bookworm Twilight had no specific goal for her life that we knew of. We watched as helping friends and other ponies became more important to her, and we watched her grow magic and leadership-wise as seasons went by. The ponies she admires used their powers to change the world.
 
We’ve been watching Twilight figuring out what being a Princess means to HER. She is using her title and qualities towards something we spent the entire show witnessing become important to her. Twilight believes that she and her friends have the power to do it and to me, that’s carving her own destiny. Just because she doesn’t go “screw Celestia and screw everything I learned and accomplished” doesn’t mean she’s not making her own choices.
 
“I feel that even with everything so perfectly set up by Celestia”
 
The show treats Twilight’s title as her own unexpected accomplishment and Celestia and the other princesses never told her what she was meant to make of it (not even when she felt lost) rather letting Twi figure out for herself. Like the episode or not, we would not have had a two-parter about the purple pony’s realization if it was not genuine.
 
“The more she’s forced to play the role of princess, the less Twilight can be herself”
 
If Twilight ended up with a purpose as princess that didn’t fit her story, a kingdom forcefully imposed on her, had she been pushed away from Ponyville or anything that’s important to her, or had she been constantly shown to be unwilling to use her abilities to help and dislike her new self, then I’d agree there could be an argument for that.
 
But, as I see it, the writers made sure that the OPPOSITE were true. She wanted to do more, and the Princess of Friendship title seems designed to fit Twilight while giving her influence as a Princess: it keeps her based in Ponyville, gives her certain autonomy from Celestia by giving quests through a map, puts her magic and intelligence to use, makes sure she and her friends are close as ever and go on adventures together, and means she has authority to teach and spread the mesage of friendship to ponies who don’t know it’s power and importance, just like she once didn’t.
 
And the aspects of being princess that she struggles with more (such as moving to a big castle of her own, being more assertive or playing the royal part in purely social events and ceremonies), well, the writers seem to want us to see her getting through those in time and with the friend’s help, which strenghtens the series theme of friendship and makes Twilight’s adaptation something they can continue to explore.
 
Twilight herself has changed. She went from a non-believer in friendship to it’s student to an influential pony that has spreading it as her creed and is now it’s most adamant preacher.
 
“Rainbow Rocks, written by Meghan, went out of its way to mock and belittle the princess plot”
 
In my eyes Rainbow Rocks showed Twilight can still mishandle things and falter under certain pressure, indeed, but I took the jabs and the lesson as a reminder for her that she can count on others and that even as a Princess she’s still allowed to fail and ask for help when she doesn’t have answers, not a way to belittle her title. I sure don’t think Sunset and the others see her as any less of a Princess simply because she wasn’t able to solve the problem on her own.
 
Heck, if that was the goal we wouldn’t have had Sunset write that neat ‘Dear Princess Twilight’ letter at the end. That was a pretty nostalgic and meaningful scene IMO, and the first time Princess Twilight was implied as a sort of friendship mentor to someone.
 
And it fits since Sunset was amongst the first person/pony whose eyes Princess Twilight helped open regarding the power of friendship. Ironically, she is one of the big examples that the “equestrian princess philosophy of offering second chances when possible” can pay off.
 
“ but how many methods could they think of for extending the series”
 
I can’t claim to know how long the series will last (if it will end in season 6 and a movie or not) but I think most people would agree that the idea of undermining one of the show’s biggest developments doesn’t become any better if it’s done because the writers ran out of other ways to extend the series. If anything that would make it more of a shame.
 
The show has already lasted longer than most people would predict and I personally think the writers have done a good job coming up with new ideas and things to explore without insulting the character’s past developments.
 
Each season they take the care to leave the characters in a satisfying note and in a good path, but never adressing every single detail to the point of leaving no room for more.
 
“And I mean besides the intros and finales of S3 and S4 Meghan wrote with the effort of a grade school project, while Rainbow Rocks had better writing then all of them combined”
 
That could certainly be your opinion and I won’t contend. I doubt Meghan herself would agree though, as I recall she was really proud of the S4 finale so I assume she put more thought into it than you’re giving it credit here.
 
Don’t you think its odd that Twilight is still brownnosing Celestia even at the end of S4
 
Well, personally I see you as having a more negative perception of Celestia and her influence on Twilight then the show intended in general.
 
There’s a good reason the purple one looks up to her: Celestia is portrayed as a kind sage pony who has ruled Equestria not by force but by competence, and a good influence overall. She is surely responsible for giving Twilight the oportunities that allowed her to unleash her potential - The whole basis of FIM and the mane 6 wouldn’t exist had Celestia not nudged Twilight in the right path.
 
Not to mention, the process of Twilight relying less on Celestia and more on herself can surely happen now with her new title. I’d argue it’s already happening to some extent - season 5 opener and RR showed us Princess Twilight going on quests out of her own accord without Celestia sending or explaining what to do, like it used to be the case.  

 
That’s all I really have to say. Hopefully, despite my perspective not meshing with yours you can understand why a reversal story would feel more than out of place in my eyes.
 
Has Twilight had doubts about the change? Sure! The writers surely know it would be flat, unrealistic and a waste or oportunity for stories if she never did. But time and time again she had such doubts about her own worth as princess overcome through help of those arround her (be it her friends, Celestia, the other princesses, etc.) and was shown to come out of those experiences a little wiser and a little more sure of herself.
 
Ending that in a ‘and she gave up because turns out her insecurities were right all along and people like Twilight aren’t cut out for it anyway and she can only be happy the way she used to be’ would not only be the least satisfying ending to that journey I can personally imagine, but a backwards development that demeans the whole point of a good portion of the show. The first would be hard for me to forgive, the latter impossible.
 
And… I just wrote all this about a magical horse cartoon meant to sell toys. Gotta rethink my life.

@sapphire475gs  
Fujiwara no Mokou from Touhou!
 
Also Jean Grey from X-Men.

Well, if everyone else is calling it a Phoenix:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl17uhqSuqc

@Background Pony #0A55  
I feel quite the opposite, I feel that even with everything so perfectly set up by Celestia, if Twilight learned to carve her own destiny, something not handed to her, it would make an excellent reversal story. Its not easy for a person to see their own weaknesses and limitations.
 
Ever since the beginning of the Princess Twilight plot, in Crystal Empire with Celestia showing Luna the book, we were already given clues that it might be a Red Herring plot to set up Sunset’s story and more. And I mean besides the intros and finales of S3 and S4 Meghan wrote with the effort of a grade school project, while Rainbow Rocks had better writing then all of them combined.
 
From Luna’s doubt to Discord’s doubt to Spike’s doubt to RD’s doubt, we were constantly being reminded that Twilight may not be on the right path. Afterall, chessmaster Celestia may actually be wrong…how else do you think Celestia is going to evolve as a character? By being right forever? Sunset has a lot more wisdom then her mentor now, and vast more empathy taken to heart then Celestia or Twilight, and she’s the only character in the series in the position to make both Twilight and Celestia really look at themselves. Rainbow Rocks, written by Meghan, went out of its way to mock and belittle the princess plot, and undermine the philosophy Celestia built for Twilight. If you need reference, its in many of the Spike talking to the Humane 6 scenes.
 
You say undermining S3 and S4 would be a waste, but how many methods could they think of for extending the series while simultaneously setting up Sunset’s character? Don’t you think its odd that Twilight is still brownnosing Celestia even at the end of S4? That Sunset is now being treated by DHX as more of a main character then Twilight?
 
The more she’s forced to play the role of princess, the less Twilight can be herself. The one elephant in the room she’s had since the beginning is that Twilight is spineless when confronted with Celestia’s orders and expectations, sacrificing her common sense and even her morals too many times. You would see the series end without her ever overcoming that? Just so she could stay a princess?
 
I’m afraid we view the series and its characters FAAAR too differently.

@CronoM
 
 
I’m not saying that she COULDN’T have taken a less ambitious route and been happy, I’m saying that that is (in my opinion very clearly) not the path the show took. And that’s fine.
 
Twilight has spent the last seasons developing as a princess and finding a role And in general it was always portrayed as a POSITIVE change. It makes no sense, in my eyes, to assume they are gonna undermine all that and have her suddently decide to give it all up. It would be insulting to everything that happened until now.

Jeez…“the goal of the writers is?! . Since when does your assumption of what the writers want to do nessesitate fact?
 
We can guess the direction the writers want, but guess only. Your arguments here are based only on your perspective is and how you want it to be fact in order for Twilight to remain a Princess. You don’t even acknowledge the alternative.
 
Yes, she can be all 3. But who says she’ll always WANT to be a princess the more she thinks for herself? You? You think just because a princess fits a few things of what she does naturally, she doesn’t want a less ambitious, far more fitting option, if and when she learns to think for herself? Perhaps, but most likely not.

“Twilight can still be herself, a friend and be a wizard, all without being a princess”
 
She already IS a princess. She is one BECAUSE she earned that through dedication, intelligence, growth, leadership and study of Friendship. A natural progression of everything she had worked for before and during Ponyville.
 
Twilight can be herself, a friend, a wizard AND a princess. In Equestria, a Princess is many things and all of those are included. Celestia herself is an example of a Princess Twilight admires, studied under and and has always had as a role model.
 
“It was not her choice, nor is it her personal ambition”
 
Twilight’s ambitions such as: helping ponies? advancing in magical power? teaching and learning? All of those combined fit her role as a Princess prety well I’d say.
 
Twilight has said it herself that her role as Princess of Friendship is the role she is meant to play in that world. The one she CHOOSES to have.
 
 
“All source… do NOT have her liking being a princess at all”
 
What are you talking about? When Twilight has self-doubt and is still finding her place, the goal of the writers is to show that being a Princess isn’t something she’ll get perfectly used to from one day to another. It takes time to adapt to such a change. Not that she is unhappy with it.
 
Twilight never expected to get as far as she did, but it’s made clear that she is overjoyed and honored with her new role and wants to make the most of it.

@Background Pony #0A55  
Twilight can still be herself, a friend and be a wizard, all without being a princess.
 
It was not her choice, nor is it her personal ambition, the only reason why she wants to be a good princess is to please Celestia, and that’s not a good or healthy long-run goal. She was already starting to feel doubt about her position in Equestria Games(her not being able to join her friends) and Trade Ya(her identity and property all being assosiated with being a princess), which were NOT things she liked. And heck, those were the later episodes of S4 leading UP to Rainbow Rocks.
 
Then they damned the path of living for other’s expectations and trying to think big problems are only your own, etc in Rainbow Rocks as a path that would only lead to misery. Just because Celestia has almost complete control over the ‘destiny’ part of Twilight’s life, to the point where Twilight has a castle of hers that TELLS Twilight and the others when they’ve completed a mission or not…that hardly means she should fully accept it. You think the S5 premier was a moral grey? Grey hasn’t even started.
 
The whole castle table was just another method for Twilight to be ‘lead’ into the direction of being a good princess for Celestia. Heck, until they met a member of the ‘resistance’ in town, Twilight didn’t have any strong feelings towards the town, she was mostly agreeing with Fluttershy in terms of objectivity. Celestia didn’t have to be there in person in either this recent episode or Rainbow Rocks for Twilight to be still living under Celestia’s expectations.
 
All source materials that involve the head writer Meghan where Twilight gains a bit of personal clarity in what truly matters outside of Celestia do NOT have her liking being a princess at all, so can you care to explain why she should be a princess? A real moral reason? Cause a lot of us can’t see squat.

@ExOttoyuhr
 
@CronoM
 
Will you forgive me if I try to share a different perspective? Not so much on what you said about Sunset, but on Twilight?
 
Twilight STARTED as an anti-social bookworm who would probably be happier stuck in her books, but after meeting the mane 6 we see her leadership and magical skills start to blossom in tandem with her friendship lessons.
 
Yes, in some sense she didn’t feel prepared to become a Princess. But since then she has been learning and adapting and slowly growing in confidence and we see that.
 
For exemple: in the season 5 opener there was no Celestia - there was only Twilight’s own iniciative to persue the map and help those ponies. Even without any magic and pretty much helpless, she managed to inspire the village and come up with the plan that (thanks to Fluttershy’s great job) saved the day.
 
I don’t think, at this point, that Twilight would be happy doing anything else. She has the desire to help Equestria and she has the title, intelligence, good nature and magical power to do so.
 
Princesses in Equestria cover an array of qualities and duties. My point is basically that Twilight can and is finding her own way as Princess. We’re slowly starting to see just how many lives she is gonna change.
 
Now to Sunset. I’d say Sunset has her own strenghts and weaknesses and can be a leader if she chooses to. I’m sure she has a bright future wherever it takes her.

First thought  

Sunset Shimmer used Phoenix Aspect it’s similar to Dragon Aspect in terms of power and effects.  
Yolzoor Yolos Unahzaal Phoenix, Flame, Eternal: Phoenix Aspect  
Once a day, take on the mighty aspect of a Phoenix, delivering colossal blows, with a hide of flame, and more powerful Shouts.

 
anthro: left wing  
demon: right wing  
default: center  
phoenix: complete form