DB WORKSHOP: Tag discussion

@Lemonjack
 
Grow some thicker skin, transgender/TG for that aspect of the transformation fetish is the accepted term with pretty much every community or site dealing with it, it’s purely descriptive.
 
Autogynephilia is inaccurate since describes a person interested in a female version of themselves. That’s not necessarily what the TG fetish is about, as it usually involves other characters. The term could actually be interpreted as more offensive since it’s connected to Blanchard’s transsexualism typology. Ray Blanchard is the one who coined the term and he’s gotten flak for his theories from the transsexual community.
 
There are also a few tags that have more than one definition. So I fail to see what the problem is for being used for both the fetish context and in gender dysphoria sense. If we really need separate tags, why not just use transsexual or gender dysphoria for non fetish stuff since those aren’t the general terms for transformation fetish works on the internet.

@Taupe_Hat
 
Telling someone to ‘grow thicker skin’ is insensitive and close-minded. You have no idea how insulting this is. ‘Transgender transformation’ may be the accepted term among your group, but the far larger group of transgender individuals would prefer if you didn’t fetishize their condition.
 
‘Transgender’ is not the accurate term for this fetish, as these transformed people presumably have no gender dysphoria. Transgender is not a portmanteau of the words ‘transformation’ and ‘gender’. What if a group you find revulsive took a word you use to identify yourself to identify themselves with? What if pedophiles or Neo-Nazis started to call themselves ‘bronies’? How would that make you feel?
 
Do you know why ‘autogynephilia’ received such flak from the transgender community? Because Dr. Blanchard attempted to fetishize their condition, the same change of gender you fetishize and claim is not offensive, yet point out the offensiveness of the word ‘autogynephilia’ that fetishizes transsexualism. Your hypocrisy is astounding.
 
Yes, we need two tags for these two vastly different things. Not all transgender people identify as ‘transsexual’, as they don’t want to equate their condition with sexuality. This gender swap transformation fetish could be handled with the tags ‘gender swap’ and ‘transformation’ (not difficult to search for), or if you must have a single tag, ‘genderbent’.
 
You can call your fetish whatever you want, but it needs a unique tag so I and everyone else who is offended by it can block it and never have to see or deal with it.

@Lemonjack  
Have to agree with Lemonjack on this.
 
You can’t decide on a new name for a term that already has another accepted meaning in the common speech.  
And if that other name IS actually used in the transformation fetish sub-community you know, then at best in has to be separated from the other tag, eg. like we do for example with the “tank” and “tank (vehicle)” and other similar tags.

Perhaps just use “TG” for the transformation stuff then? It is more commonly used for it. Example: Fimfiction’s TG/TF group and if you type “TG” in to google you get a combination of TF/TG art and hits for 4chan’s /tg/ board on the first page. “Transgender” pulls up hits on sites related to it the gender dysphoria/transsexual sense of the term.
 
The point is TG/trangender is very much associated with fetish transformation on the net and it’s the reason the tag was used in the first place.
 
Edit:“TG/TF” could be better suited tag than “TG”.

How about genderbent? It’s in the system already and the name implies a transformation has occurred.

@Sjogre
 
My main concern about gender bender/gender bent is that it’s used for both rule 63 and transformation.
 
If we’re going to be replacing “transgender” as a tag it should cover what that tag covered specifically which is gender/sex transformation. Rule 63 is usually something like alternate universe version of the character with no actual transformation.
 
If “TG/TF” or “TG” are unacceptable, I would suggest “gender transformation” or “sex transformation”. Personally I prefer the former.

@Taupe_Hat  
I’ve seen Rule 63 used to cover any version of gender swapped character, be they from transformation or alternate setting or whatever. As Rule 63 is used to refer transformation, there’s nothing wrong with it being used alongside transformation tags.
 
Actually, Rule 63 is used to refer to transformations already, and has most of the synonyms already aliased, so why not stick with that? Maybe go with “Rule 63 Transformation?”
 
This thread is the first that I’ve heard about transgender covering transformation. I’ve never used it in such a way. It has it’s own meaning, and is mostly used to tag that, rather than transformations.

“TG/TF”, or “rule 63 transformation” would be names I am okay with.
 
However, at this point I must ask: is such a tag needed?  
Isn’t it already covered by “rule 63” + “transformation”?
 
If we add it then at least we should get those two aliased in the other thread asap.

Genderbent, one word, is about the only synonym for gender swap that isn’t aliased to Rule 63. I was actually going to suggest gender swap to use a common term similar to the already used race swap and species swap, but it’s already aliased to Rule 63.
 
The only reason that transgender isn’t aliased to Rule 63 already is because it has a meaning other than gender swap.

Seriously delayed reply, I’m sorry.
 
I still don’t think it needs to be changed, transgender is fine and that’s what it’s known as pretty much everywhere else. Changing it will only confuse people. Gender swap is another word for Rule 63, it doesn’t imply transformation at all and is inaccurate. Rule 63 is typically used for canon characters of anything, I’ve never seen it used for OCs legitimately.
 
Claiming transgender doesn’t mean both is bullshit. Words have more than one meaning and transgender clearly and obviously stands for both. Changing it because one person getting offended at it is absolutely ridiculous.

@Background Pony #B437  

 
Again, I’d like to see some proof of that. Like Sjogre, I never heard it used that way either. (And it seems an inaccurate use of the word too.)
 
If it’s used in transformation fetish communities that’s a different deal, and I believe that without getting shown too.
 
But like I said before: if a word has more than one meaning THEN DB WILL DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE TWO MEANINGS. That is how we usually handle things. If you want this tag, then make a “transgender (transformation)” or similar tag. (The brackets at the end being the common way on DB to differentiate identical tag names with different meanings.)

@Vree
 
Except it’s still really unnecessary. They have their own words aside from transgender to use. All of this was started from one single person throwing a fit for no reason and re-tagging everything he didn’t like so he could get his own way. Everything was perfectly fine before this.
 
I’m sure I could find some examples if you hadn’t eliminated the only useable examples. Nice use of “you can’t use this example, so you have nothing to use.”

@Background Pony #B437  
In the first twenty-eight pictures of the transgender tag, only one of the picture is the transformation of a character.
 
Other than that, we have transgender original characters, a humanized canon character that was made transgender, a ponyfied transgender character from another franchise, a transwoman cosplayer, and pictures mentioning transgender issues.
 
This site seems pretty clear on how to use the tag.
 
Checking two other image sites, Danbooru and e621, they use genderswap and crossgender, respectively. Still not transgender.
 
Rule 63 is used for opposite sex versions of a character. Including original characters, and including transformations.
 
Now, there is some overlap between transgender and transformation pictures, but they aren’t the same thing.

@Sjogre
 
It’s like that now because someone abused the tags in a fit. Okay, sure, I’ll give in on most of what you said about Rule 63, but it still doesn’t cover transformation.

Overall I’d still have to agree with B437, the tag has been used since derpibooru was started and only one person has ever made a complaint.
 
Outside the brony community I can give more examples.
 
TGcomics.com and its sister site, TGcaps.com, as well as several sites on its link page use “trangender/TG” in their names.
 
The majority of TG/TF webcomics have used the term at some point in reference to it with no problems. Most prominent are El Goonish Shive and the Wotch.
 
Even fictionmania, the largest repository of TG fiction on the net uses transgender to reference magic/scifi transformation work with no one getting offended. That site probably has largest proportion of actual transsexuals/transgenders posting stories.
 
And Deviantart may not be the best example but they use it too with no problems.

@Background Pony #BA05
 
And that’s me, sorry, forgot to log back in.

@Background Pony #B437  
Since when was it limited like that?

@Background Pony #BA05
 
Thank you for doing the work I was too lazy to do.
 
FurAffinity also uses it, like DeviantArt, it isn’t a great example, but it is one. (At least I was able to contribute one example!) I’m sure there’s many others, though.
 
It should be noted that this one single person who suddenly has taken issue with it doesn’t represent everyone who is transgender, either. Being offended doesn’t make him right. How long has Lemonjack been on this site? Why did it take this long for him to suddenly be offended by it and start abusing the tags?
 
EDIT: Well fuck, I forgot to hit anon. Oh well.
 
@Sjogre
 
I wouldn’t call it a limit, more that it just doesn’t include that there’s any transformation. For example, an alternate universe Twilight where she’s male is rule 63. A fanwork depicting the canon universe Twilight transforming to male would be Rule 63 as well, but it doesn’t cover the fact that she’s transforming to a different gender.

@Agent Orange  
Furaffinty and Deviantart don’t have tag rules, that I know of. Not organized at all.
 
What are some of these transformation pictures that had the transgender tag removed? Last time I searched the transgender tag before this conversation was ages ago, but it still had mostly transgender stuff rather than general transformations, so I don’t recal any point where it was used as a general transformation tag on this site.

@Sjogre
 
Anything under the new tag, about 1/3rd of what was in there assuming he actually re-tagged everything, which I doubt.
 
I don’t know about DA, but FurAffinity has a dropdown box on gender when uploading pictures and transgender is typically used for transformation from what I have seen. Not to mention they have a (very poor) tag system where the uploader can optionally use such tags (they can type anything into the field) and some use this as well.

@Sjogre
 
The reason is because Lemonjack appears to have systematically removed the “transgender” tag from anything that was also tagged as “transformation” within the past day or two.
 
Look at the tag change logs.

I have a question regarding >>441403. For the [solo](/tags/solo) tag, does an image of another pony count, or do they have to be visible in the flesh?

This debate is all quite silly and caused by ONE person who got their proverbial panties in a twist.
 
TFTG is a fetish term going back to the 70s, and it’s used be tens of thousands of people on furry and story sites for decades. For example, FurAffinity alone has nearly 3000 pictures tagged with TFTG. Go and see for yourself, or go to any other Booru and search for tftg, there will be countless results.
 
And tftg is not the same as Autogyn or r63 since that’s usually just gender. It breaks down like this:
 
1. Autogynephilia– Male to female. No species change or any exotic TF going on, it’s just gender, and it’s just M->F
 
2. Gender Bent– Similar to Autogyn, but can be F->M as well. Still is restricted to SAME SPECIES though. (i.e. You wouldn’t describe a human male turning into female dog as “gender bent”. Gender bent is just something like “Sara woke up as a dude”)
 
3. Rule 63– Refers to a universe where that character was ALWAYS the other gender. (i.e. a fic about an alternate timeline were all mane six are colts, that’s a rule 63 story). And again, there’s no species swapping here.
 
4. TF, aka, transformation. Change of physical form. Dog into cat. Man into bird. Etc. Term can technically include gender change, but conventionally doesn’t in order to help people sort things better. Been this way for decades.
 
5. TFTG, aka TF w/TG Change of form and gender. Blend of autogynephilia and transformation. Given it’s own tag because many people who are into vanilla TF aren’t too crazy for the gender swapping focus of TF/TG that occurs alongside the physical form transformation.
 
In any case, I don’t really see why there’s even an argument. I believe you when you say you are bothered by it, but the fact of the matter is there are thousands of artists, writers, and viewers in the pony community that know and use the term TFTG, and you are one person who wants EVERYONE ELSE to change what they have been doing for years. If the Gender Dysphoric community at large were to go public and ask TFTG fans to stop using the term, it would be considered. But you’re one person.
 
It would be like if I mailed the mods and told them to change your username because the term “Lemonjack” is deeply offensive to my local religion, and I am claiming to speak on behalf of all of them and I demand that your name be banned because it’s insulting to my beliefs and hurts my feelings.

@Taupe_Hat  
I believe “crossgender” is the e621 term.

@Taupe_Hat  
Yeah…..
 
I’ve gone through and checked, and while Lemonjack did remove a few transgender tags from images that started with them, the vast majority of the removed tags were added by Eriam a couple of days ago, mostly to the relatively recent Human To Pony transformation pictures.
 
DerpiB only would have had a trangender tag listing with a significant franction of transformation pictures for maybe a day. So, no, Lemonjack didn’t butcher the transgender tag.
 
Near as I can tell, Eriam was putting in a tag to denote gender transformations and didn’t want to use Rule 63, and just about every synonym for gender swaps was already aliased to it, so Eriam went with the first that they found.
 
Eriam has also been switching transgender to genderbent on some of those human to pony pictures, so the only person that tagged gender bending as transgender has jumped ship on that.
 
Also, I thought that this changelog was kinda funny.