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“Yes, ponies came to her town because they were unhappy and thought her Equality stance would help. I never contradicted that, so this point isn’t really relevant(?!?). I was merely speaking to Starlight’s motives, not the other ponies in her town.”
Are…are you serious?
They’re completely interconnected! Starlight’s motives are completely connected with how and why her village was formed. When you ignore that, then there’s a huge gaping hole in your interpretation of Starlight’s motives.
…
“I think the real disconnect here is that you see my interpretation of her motives as “fanon” while yours are not.”
I’ll stick with the stuff established thank you. And the actual established dialogue, there are tons of issues that were legitimate problems in Equestria that Starlight and her village experienced that were never addressed for past and future experiences, but was instead swept under the rug. The stuff not isolated to Starlight herself is crucial to how this insultingly dumbed down redemption phase makes no sense
Without considering how her motivations grew with the motivations of her villagers, then you are ignoring a huge chunk of her character.
…
“As for those ponies, all we know is they now consider the town their home. No other reason is given for them remaining. While your point may be true (they’re staying because they haven’t solved their cutie mark dilemma), it’s also not stated in the episode. All we know is that the season has passed, they’ve stayed in the town and it hasn’t fallen apart. They’re doing alright, as far as that goes.”
Making her entire philosophy that the finale hastily tried to write as completely wrong…
…a giant question mark with no answers. Her entire redemption arc they’ve slapped on to her character has a dozen unanswered issues or contradicting retcons, and is an absolute insult to the backstories of everyone in Starlight’s village. Do you honestly wonder why many, many consider her the worst written character now?
Also, again, if you want to stick with your fanon idea that them still living completely isolated from their old lives somehow means that all their issues have been resolved, good for you. It don’t recall them ever stating ‘them living there’=’issues solved’.
As for the actual canon, they all left their old lives cause they’re cutie marks made them miserable, and they have yet to establish any of them gaining closure. No solution has actually been presented.
Plus, if your NOT stating that their issues have been resolved, then why are you pretending that this blank state redemption of her’s means anything if Starlight was partially right?
….
“Also, you misuse the term retcon. Having new information revealed is not a retcon. A retcon would be if something in the episode said that prior depicted events did not happen or at least did not happen as depicted in the previous episode.”
Which is what happened. The original episode stated that all the ponies wanted to have their cutie marks removed, and now the writers want to paint a pretend picture that the evil Starlight stole all their cutie marks against their will and not because they desired it.
Therein lies the contradiction, and therein lies the retcon. Let’s not beat around the bush about it.
Also, while this other thing isn’t a complete retcon, it IS an elaboration that contradicts its own idea. Sunburst was sent to Celestia’s school because he showed excess magical talent when his cutie mark awakened, yet Starlight’s magical power was already on an entirely different level and yet it went completely unnoticed. Starlight’s nonsensical backstory was bad enough in the finale, but at least if we assumed she developed her powers later in life, the first step might make some sense so long as you ignored a bunch of stuff. But then even that was dashed aside; there was no reason Starlight couldn’t of went with Sunburst with her magical talent.
THAT you could claim is just ‘additional information’ instead of retcon. Unfortunately, that additional information makes no sense.
…
“Starlight was right in that not all ponies are happy with their cutie marks, or how their place in society. Her methods, however, were absolutely wrong. That is why she’s having to redeem herself.”
Ahhhhh, how conveeeeeniannt! How convenient that the issues Starlight’s village brought up were discarded just because the initial method was wrong, instead of finding a middleground.
They dumbed down an introduced philosophy issue about acceptance and role within Equestria, to an INSULTINGLY dumb conflict of good vs misguided evil, with a completely one sided resolution.
Its garbage.
Edited
I think the real disconnect here is that you see my interpretation of her motives as “fanon” while yours are not.
Yes, ponies came to her town because they were unhappy and thought her Equality stance would help. I never contradicted that, so this point isn’t really relevant. I was merely speaking to Starlight’s motives, not the other ponies in her town.
As for those ponies, all we know is they now consider the town their home. No other reason is given for them remaining. While your point may be true (they’re staying because they haven’t solved their cutie mark dilemma), it’s also not stated in the episode. All we know is that the season has passed, they’ve stayed in the town and it hasn’t fallen apart. They’re doing alright, as far as that goes.
Starlight was right in that not all ponies are happy with their cutie marks, or how their place in society. Her methods, however, were absolutely wrong. That is why she’s having to redeem herself.
Also, you misuse the term retcon. Having new information revealed is not a retcon. A retcon would be if something in the episode said that prior depicted events did not happen or at least did not happen as depicted in the previous episode.
Completely agreed. As you and I stated before, its a mockery of the backstory of her town, its a mockery to her character’s justifications and personality, and its overall a mockery to the watchers.
After all, they can’t leave if you don’t let them leave! She stole cutie marks because that was how she rationalized ponies thinking they were “too good” and leaving.
Your analysis was on the right track until it veered off here into contradicting non-canon statements based on fanon and unexplained retcons.
Ponies went to her to live without their cutie marks from the start because they hated the lives they’re cutie marks gave them, and it was making them unhappy. Yes, she assumed a lot of immoral control over the situation after they decided to have their cutie marks removed, but the root cause still exists and it is not isolated to Starlight.
The reason the three wanted their cutie marks back is because they didn’t like the other extreme that Starlight gave them. That didn’t suddenly mean that the issues they’re cutie marks caused they’re old lives suddenly vanished. Even the three first dissenters didn’t return to their old lives before the village formed, let alone the rest of them.
We got a brief glimpse of her town in the S5 finale, where she saw the ponies were doing just fine with all their cutie marks. Proving to her she was in the wrong.
If they were fine they would of returned to their old friends and family. But they didn’t, we saw in the finale that they were still there in that remote town That’s not ‘everything is solved, Starlight was wrong and it was all her decisions and it was all her fault, lol’. What that is, is a support group. The old village lives together with cutie marks because they found a flaw in Starlight’s system, but they have no idea what to do with the issues that brought them there.
Not only are you unintentionally ignoring the original intentions of the townspeople and their current status, which are outcasts who’ve formed a support group, you are ignoring the concepts that will continue to persist in ponies like the townspeople and how the show just wants us to forget about them.
@Masque Raccoon
Your analysis of Starlight herself is not bad, although like the end of the finale, it ignores the concepts Starlight thought really hard about the current system and, like her followers, found major flaws in it. A ton of her convictions were left unaddressed and describes are far less learned person then Starlight the antagonist. Her backstory is completely worthless and full of questions, but you’ve already noted that.
Pretty much agree with this. Sure her backstory could’ve been done better, but for what it represents is the main reason why I like her.
Starlight internalized the idea “everyone I care about will leave me” (when Sunburst was whisked away to magic school) as “cutie marks will make everyone leave me.” It’s a simple thing for a child to mix up after such an emotional shock: they need something to blame, and the cutie mark was a visible target.
So she became focused on control. After all, they can’t leave if you don’t let them leave! She stole cutie marks because that was how she rationalized ponies thinking they were “too good” and leaving. But ponies still sometimes wanted their cutie marks back, so she resorted to cult-like behavior to keep them in line.
When the Mane 6 ruined her plans, she was no longer in control. So she blamed Twilight and her friends. That set her on the path of breaking them up, via the time travel spell.
Her redemption was realizing she had been too scared of ponies leaving her to ever try and make friends normally. That, yes, she was wrong to try and control other ponies as a substitute for having meaningful relationships. Reaching out and trusting Twilight was the first step of her redemption.
We got a brief glimpse of her town in the S5 finale, where she saw the ponies were doing just fine with all their cutie marks. Proving to her she was in the wrong.
And as we saw in “The Crystalling,” she’s still working things out. She had a panic attack at the mere thought of having to tell her (idolized) childhood friend that she had sunk so low. She tried to hide it until he finally admitted he wasn’t as important as she thought.
Yeah, they made her turnaround look too quick in the S5 finale. But that’s a minor problem. Overall, her story seems just fine to me.
Edited
Basically though I forgot to add this one to my previous comment but I highly doubt we’d see Our Town again because of it. They’re pretty much proof that Glimmer was right on some degree.
The only way this redemption works and her attitude and personality work is that she has to be completely in the wrong.
Quite frankly if they showed Glimmer’s ideology affecting and fitting only her the redemption could’ve had a chance of working.
Since we know however that she’s not entirely in the wrong and it can fit other ponies however it comes across as incredibly insulting to not only Glimmer’s character but to the audience as well as you’re telling them to ignore certain things for her redemption to work.
Edited
So in other words your saying it does make sense… but only in the idea that they are adding another badly written retcon to compliment last season’s badly written retcon and nonsensical backstory.
I totally agree, that does make a twisted amount of sense. Unfortunately, that just makes it more worrisome how many liberties are they going to take with her character without thought or effort.
Well it does make a twisted amount of sense. Her entire backstory has her blame the wrong thing entirely making everything she says baseless. It makes sense that they would retcon it into stealing Cutie Marks since her worries were worthless anyways and since it makes it so her ideology only applies go her.
Not trying to justify the post above since its still a crappy retcon but still…
Might as well.
Have we gone full circle? That’s the baseline argument again.
She was prepared for the eventuality of disbelievers and meddlers. And all evidence among the dialogue and the villagers points towards them not experienced it. Haven’t we already covered that while she has a strong philosophy on what is good for society, she still thinks like a villain a lot. She was not unprepared for her own decision to forcefully remove the Mane 6’s cutie marks.
I think we’ve debated this subject dry, honestly, especially since we’re repeating ourselves a bit too much.
Agree to disagree?
I don’t buy Starlight’s claim that she never had to deal with any dissent before the Mane Six came to her village. She’s been shown to lie before, so any claims from her should be taken with a grain of salt. Besides: why would Starlight have a re-education room or a pair of stocks in her village if she’s never used them before?
I’m not saying some cults don’t practice it, but its a very out there theory considering how little evidence we have towards that scenario in the episodes. Heck, the pony that was thrown into the stockade with them never mentioned being in there before, and we have no reason to believe he ever was.
In other words its possible, but very unlikely.
My point is that the evidence seems to point to solitary confinement in the re-education room as being an essential part of the equalization process. You seem to believe that doing so would be incompatible with the fact the ponies in question joined Starlight’s cult of their own volition. This hypothesis ignores the fact there are multiple examples of cults using solitary confinement and brainwashing as part of initiation rituals for new members. I am not arguing that the ponies in question were unwilling to join her cult and had to be coerced into doing so as you seem to be suggesting: I’m arguing the evidence points to a period of solitary confinement in the re-education room being essential to completing the equalization process. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume newly equalized ponies were sent to the re-education room not only to complete the equalization process, but also as an “initiation ritual” of sorts.
“I was responding to the argument that Starlight never used her re-education room on any of the villagers before and pointing out that even if she hadn’t brainwashed them that way, she brainwashed them in other ways.”
Only in methods they already signed up for. Methods that merely re-enforced the mentality of when they came to the village. The re-education room, on the other hand, being used prior suggests the opposite, that there were some or even all that were unwilling in the process.
It isn’t the same. They may both be brainwashing, but they set an entirely different precedent.
And, for a more obvious and less philosophical point, them all being stuffed in the re-education rooms for the initial process, it would of been a way bigger red flag then Starlight still having a cutie mark. Or anything more then the brain-washing they asked for.
@Crystal Neighybánya
“When did I suggest that?”
You initially thought that her village being unforced was laughable. Well, it wasn’t initially. It used pretty immoral methods, but initially they came for an unforced reason and unforced initiation. Your idea that they used the chambers beforehand completely changes that president, making it closer to kidnapping and the bad paraphrasing seen above, which we’ve both concluded from the narrative is untrue.
If your point was the upkeep was immoral with willing brainwashing, everyone already knows that. That’s why I’m confused what your point is.
I was responding to the argument that Starlight never used her re-education room on any of the villagers before and pointing out that even if she hadn’t brainwashed them that way, she brainwashed them in other ways.
@CronoM
When did I suggest that?
This is getting highly semantic. Between the effects of the cutie mark removal and the propaganda, of course its mind altering to some degree. ‘Even if’? Her using the reeducation chambers beforehand was your main argument!
The point is this wasn’t a freakin’ prison camp initially, everyone signed up and drank the kool-aid because for some reason or another, they found the alternative of their past lives worse. I’m not saying its their fault, what I’m saying is that there was reason they signed up initially. An unforced reason. What came AFTER was the immoral method.
If you are trying to argue that the method was wrong, we all know that all ready. If your trying to argue this was forced upon them initially and there was no issue in their old lives, there’s no evidence to suggest that. I’m not even sure what your argument is anymore.
The evidence points to brainwashing being an essential part of the equalization process. Even if she never used her little
torture chamberreeducation room before the M6 arrived (which I highly doubt - why would you even have a reeducation room if you were never going to use it?), her constant propaganda could be considered a form of brainwashing.Fun fact: her village having loudspeakers that constantly spouted out propaganda is probably based on North Korea, which has a similar setup in Pyongyang.
By personality traits that are identical to Twilight you mean… A unicorn of abnormal magical strength? Similar number of hair stripes?
Also, this is not a horse race to see who is the better person. Oddly.
Glimmer is a terrible pony that is grudgingly going along with a plan to make her into a better pony.
The test is how easy it is to write new episodes about her…
But wait… they haven’t done that yet. We’ve seen her in season openers and closers to the back drop of explosions and chase scenes, but we haven’t seen her in a regular episode.
That means we actually know nothing at all about her in the context that she exists in and for.
Many of her personality traits are identical to old Twilight’s now, but she’s not an exact clone. Yes, she doesn’t have Twilight’s unconditional brown-nosing/hyperdependency, or depending on how you look at it, Dependent Personality Disorder.
In a way, that might seem like an improvement if not for that the new Starlight has extremely little personality of her own. Human Twilight also doesn’t have Twilight’s dependency, but still has a fully formed personality.
I can see where you’d get that idea, but we were also presented with clear evidence that having a cutie mark removed having an effect over time. While their abilities were instantly dwindled down to average, they only experianced magical personality dwindling over extended periods of time. Sort of how they got more and more greyer and discorded once they were first discorded. Of course, Starlight’s effects were far less extreme and rapid. There was nothing magical about the audio, it was what it was, a device for breaking down their wills while the removal effect did its work. If they were all locked in there then the dialogue wouldn’t of made much sense.
@Crystal Neighybánya
Oh, really? That’s right, Luke Starkiller was his name in the 2nd draft, while in the first and rough draft his name was Annikin.
Edited
How is pony Jim Jones a rip off of Twilight? I mean she has been shoved into a Twilight shaped box, but so far she is acting like pony Jim Jones in a Twilight shaped box as opposed to acting like Twilight.
I mean Twilight’s greatest fear was failing to meet and exceed her teacher’s expectations. So far Glimmer’s greatest fear is confronting herself.
Was I the only one that noticed how Glimmer tried to fail a test to avoid dealing with her problems?
Also, it was Annikin Starkiller, not Luke Starkiller.
Yeah that’s why I call her Glimmer instead, so she at least sounds different then the pony she is copying
There is one piece of evidence that suggests Starlight used her re-education room before the Mane Six came to Our Town, and that is the fact that even after the Mane Six had their Cutie Marks removed, they didn’t look mindless as the ponies of Our Town did. This suggests removing a ponies Cutie Mark isn’t enough to equalize them and that some form of brainwashing is required to complete the process. As for Glimmer’s line of dialogue that the Mane Six were the first to cause any trouble, she could easily have been lying.
@CronoM
I think it’s fitting. She’s essentially a cheap knockoff of both Twilight Sparkle and Sunset Shimmer, so it’s only natural her name would be just as unoriginal.