Since my last post, I’ve learned something about forgiveness, both by scriptural reference and by practice: that especially the best kind is not accepting something bad someone has done, but helping that someone make good decisions. And, the most effective way of doing that is looking at the one you want to forgive, at his or her situation, and asking yourself, “If I were in his or her position, what words, what actions, what attitude, would help me make good decisions?” Then, once you have the answers to that question, apply them to the one you want to forgive.

I’ve seen both positive and negative examples of forgiveness. I think the best negative example comes from a Zorro movie I saw once.
 
In one scene, I don’t remember how Zorro was offended by that lady, but he said nothing about the offense before using the words “I forgive you.” He used those words in anger and as a weapon, and made the situation worse.
 
It seems to me that if forgiveness were intended to work that way, I wouldn’t want to forgive either.

@mjangelvortex  
And I agree Toon deserves no forgiveness in the conventional sense. But again, that’s not how the term was being used here. Dr. Wolf and Josh were merely trying to convey the idea that we shouldn’t let Toon have any kind of lasting pull or influence on us, not even anger. He should be cut out of our lives for good. It’s the same reason why the families of Dylan Roof’s victims still chose to “forgive” him. I’ll admit the Dr. Wolf and Josh could have made their message a bit clearer, but at the same time, it doesn’t take a genius to figure that forgiveness doesn’t always imply the perpetrator is absolved of their crimes. The audience is equally guilty for jumping the gun and accusing them of having intentions they didn’t even have to begin with instead of properly letting their words sink in.

Basically, toon can’t be forgiven. ForNoGoodReson made a live stream about this last night plus videos about this issue . Just go watch them and come and comment why we can NOT forgive toon

@mjangelvortex  
Isn’t it funny how we get up in arms when a favorite sin is attacked?

@cloudkicker108  
That’s it. They should have worded their video better but they didn’t. They botched their message so bad that people misunderstood what point they were trying to make. They shouldn’t have used the word forgiveness to describe the situation. It was a VERY poor choice of words and they should have honestly thought things over a bit before posting that video. Because regardless of their intent, it really did come off as naive (at best) and disrespectful to Toon’s victims (at worst).
 
I understand what you have to say (I’m not going to go full Lily Peet on them and hold a grudge over this mistake), but at the same time I do agree with what Ranch and some other people are saying in this thread. ToonKritic was grooming a minor and he has done other horrible stuff like sexually harass people at Cons. He hasn’t shown any signs of wanting to change or repent over what he’s done. He doesn’t seem like he wants to change period based on what I’ve heard. That’s just insane. He doesn’t deserve forgiveness since he doesn’t want to change. And change or no change, the fact that he wasn’t arrested over this is a huge shame. What’s stopping him from doing this again (albeit in another account)? Nothing.

FFS PLEASE STOP! It’s been months, give this topic (and image) a rest already!!

@voodoo91  
I fail to see how them stating that they’ve personally chosen to forgive Toon constitutes “shoving a message about forgiveness down our throats”. Also, it was pretty clear they weren’t using forgiveness in the conventional sense; all they really meant was that we shouldn’t let our anger and resentment towards Toon ruin our own lives.

They had one job, all they had to say was “ look we didint know this was going on, we reported it to the proper authorities and our hearts go out to the victims for the suffering they endured”. Thats it, video done, just like so many others, yet instead they fucked it up by shoving some ham fisted message about forgiveness down our throats. Some things can’t be forgiven, inflicting misery upon others is one of them.

@Ihhh  
I just checked one of the episodes where I know she appears, and you’re right. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

@SinnerWhoKeepsTrying1978  
Did you just confuse Sunset Shimmer with Starlight Glimmer?

@Psyga315
 
@northern haste  
True, there’s a difference between messing with time and space and messing with another creatures biology and emotions, just as there’s a difference between smoking until your lungs fall apart and going and murdering another creature. But, I like to think there’s an adaptability, and thus a robustness, to the principle of forgiveness. It’s not the type of principle that only works one way.
 
“Should” and “are forced to” are two different things. With “should,” there’s still the option not do. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m not capable of taking over another creature and coercing him or her to do something, whether he or she wants to or not, and especially not over great distances. All I can do is offer advice and invite. After that, it’s up to the reader, in this case, whether he or she will follow that advice or not.
 
And, as for the situation with Twilight and Sunset, it seems to me that Twilight saw something in Sunset that Sunset likely didn’t see in herself. And, it looks to me like things have turned out pretty good for Sunset Shimmer thus far. Twilight didn’t force Sunset to do anything. For her first friendship lesson, she sent Spike along with to assist her; but it was ultimately Sunset’s decision to reconnect with Sunburst.
 
I could cite all sorts of examples, but I think it’s been proven that, once given the chance, Sunset Shimmer, to date, has proven herself very different from the angry mare she was in The Cutie Re-Mark. This form of forgiveness may not work for or on everyone. There may be times when the only way forgive someone will be to separate from that someone as many ways as possible. And, if that’s the case, then that’s what should be done. But, just because something doesn’t work a certain way doesn’t mean it doesn’t work at all.

@Psyga315  
because this is real life

@SinnerWhoKeepsTrying1978  
“We should forgive our enemies, even if they fucked up space and time in the process” doesn’t quite apply to this situation.

@Psyga315  
I’m not seeing the connection.

@SinnerWhoKeepsTrying1978  
Yeah, the MLP logic doesn’t quite work now, does it?

After watching Josh Scorcher’s video, “ToonKriticY2K What Happened,” I find this image all the most interesting. One Christian says, “Let’s forgive him,” and everyone else shouts, “No, that won’t work.” Another Christian says, “Let’s forgive him this way,” and the shout-back is, “Oh, so you’re gonna force us to do it your way?”
 
 
@Background Pony #9B0D  
Which one?

@SinnerWhoKeepsTrying1978  
That’s a terrible idea.

@tigris115  
That never ever works.

@BK Leonidas  
Don’t.

For those who are interested, I’ve recently published the first chapter of a story on the subject of repentance. It seems to have been received pretty well, based on the number of views. The address is: https://www.fimfiction.net/story/401623/the-mane-six-and-forgiveness.
 
I look forward to publishing Chapter 2 as soon as it’s ready.

From what I read, their version of forgiveness is
 
“Cut him out of our lives, let go of the drama, and let God sort it out”

@Vida Pony
 
What exactly constitutes suppression? What was suppressed? Not believing someone isn’t the same as covering up crimes.

@Zaknel  
Also, please don’t think that I think that negative publicity against something means that something is bad. In fact, the opposite is true.
 
What attracted me to the brony fandom, and to My Little Pony Friendship is Magic, was an animation on Youtube, called Twilight Sparkle Meets a Brony. I’m familiar with the face of hatred, and that defined it better than most I’ve seen. Seeing that, I thought, If this show and its fandom generates that kind of hatred, there must be something good in it. And, while not everything about it has been good, I haven’t been disappointed.

@Vida Pony  
Who’s to say they actively sought to “suppress and silence” the victim? They could have simply rolled their eyes at her initially because they wanted something more definitive before accepting that awful truth about their friend. No one is saying they should be able to completely walk away from this; they definitely have some hard questions to answer. However, we shouldn’t assume the worst about them either. Full empathy for the victim is literally the first thing these analysts expressed in their responses to this situation. They brought up the manipulati9n bit because it likely did happen and was the reason why it took them so long to uncover Toon’s crimes. I don’t see why they must be immune to Toon’s manipulation just because they were his friends. If anything, they should have been easier to fool for Toon.
 
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “neither here nor there”. They haven’t given us any reason to suspect that their responses are less than genuine. If they really were played by Toon, this could be a negative in the long run. Punishing them after they’ve tried their hardest to do the right thing might dissuade them from even acting in the first place in the future.
 
No problem. I too am glad that we can still have a civil discussion despite our disagreements.