@Digital Seapony
 
Wise of you to avoid using it, considering.
 

 
It’s also noteworthy that a lot of the time, you’ll notice that by their definitions of Mary Sues, some of the reasons why… those sorts of traits often coincide with being a main character in general.
 
In this case, regarding Starlight, she is not a Mary Sue by that original BP saying “she’s included in these clips.”
 
It’s justified for her to be here in-universe due to the premise, even aside from how laughably nebulous that “personal definition” was.

@Digital Seapony  
You are way smarter for avoiding.
 
The worst is when one person has a concept that uses traits that logically contradict one another.

This complete trainwreck of a comment thread is exactly why I try to avoid using the term “Mary Sue” whenever possible.
 
The term was originally used to describe original characters in fanfiction (usually self-inserts) who (1) had powers or abilities so great that they messed up the balance of the setting, (2) were universally adored by everyone in-universe (except for possibly their enemies, who envied them), and (3) had little to no meaningful character flaws. It had a legitimate purpose in reminding fans that in order to make compelling stories, they need compelling characters with strengths and weaknesses, strong suits and fatal flaws, not just a perfect image of someone they wish they’d be.
 
Over time, this already very informal “definition” was stretched, reinterpreted, and misinterpreted so much that these days it’s hard to find two people with the same mental model of what constitutes a Mary Sue. People use it to mean very differeng things and then get mad that the other side doesn’t see the obviousness of their claims.

(Yes, I know they unsubbed… which makes what they said actually kind of laughable)
 
@PaintEdits
 

 
I mean, basically, if her character flaws factor into the plot, she’s not exactly “omnipotent” when it actually matters… it doesn’t help your case for “Mary Sue.”
 

 
I’m not trying to sound self-important by saying this, but come on, you unsubbed from the thread per your own wording before I replied.
 
If anything, the tragedy here is still how Cadance and Shining Armor’s inherent power got nerfed in your mind, because apparently their combined feat of beating Chrysalis, then Cadance herself holding Sombra off for days in S3 wasn’t impressive, because it allegedly depended on the Crystal Heart (it didn’t).

@PaintEdits
 

 
And? When the Elements of Harmony were used, blasting Discord turned him into stone. Starlight solo-blasting him hardly did jack shit. Who are you trying to fool emphasizing spectacle over substance?

Right, I’m just gonna ignore the “is Starlight a Mary Sue?” debate to say my immediate thought by the end of this episode was “Starlight really hit it off with that chicken!”. Like, really, what’s up with her and animals? I know I’m working with only two data points here – this episode and No Second Prances – but in what little time we see her with non-hostile animals, she seems to get along rather well with them. She’s no Fluttershy, this goes without saying, but still.
 
Is it just me? Is this mere selection bias on my part? Either way, this is exactly why I think we need more episodes with Starlight – not even necessarily one with her as the main character. She has a lot of these hints of character that are just there but were never expanded upon.

@PaintEdits
 

 
And you conveniently failed to mention how that counted against Starlight, in a meaningful way.
 

 
Uh… so is the entire show. What are you trying to say? Did you fail to add the word “bad?”
 

 
Funny you say that, considering:
 

 
Did you watch the show? The Crystal Heart wasn’t a factor in S2. The Crystal Empire, and by extension the Crystal Heart appeared in S3.
 
It had nothing at all to do with making Chrysalis stronger by proxy of Shining Armor’s magical love, or making him and Cadance be able to repel an army. And neither Cadance or Shining Armor mentioned anything about being so much weaker magically just because the Crystal Heart got shattered in S6.
 
So before you try to talk down to me, try to make sure you actually remember things correctly, otherwise it just doesn’t help your case at all.

@PaintEdits  
Kay, so she was pardoned for, fair enough, some pretty bad carp, but this is MLP we’re talking about, it’s not like they were gonna go “off with your head!” At least for season 6 she seems to be pretty much tied to twilight via friendship lessons a la some kind of parole. I don’t see why THIS is such an issue in MLP, the show of reformation.
 
Cadence and Shining armor had no crystal heart when they biggity blasted the entire changeling army out of canterlot
 
Starlight was put into that final team because of her newness, who else was gonna got there? You say spike, but chrissys entire plan was replace the popular people, spike included, she knows about him, she didn’t give a flying feather about starlight, “she can’t do anything” villain thinking and all. It also perfectly highlighted Starlight’s leadership role, which they continue to push in the later seasons, giving her a defining role and characterizing her and building interactions and relationships that come into play later, I see no problem with her leading the suicide squad in that finale.
 
The whole Discord banishment thing is visually impressive, but ultimately did buck all, he wasn’t imprisoned like the elements do, he was just physically prevented from entering a certain area. The whole one shutting the bugbear can also be explained quite easily as well as the size of the aforementioned beam. Starlight mentions how the stronger the feeling, the stronger the magic, especially when dealing with anger, hence the mega death beam unleashed when Discord pushed the right buttons. The big bear was also likely a limited version of that, and the reason the mane six had to spend a whole episode beating it back in S5 was they were in the middle of Ponyville where any big attack could cause serious damage, just look at the crater and trench Starlight left behind when attacking.
 
Starlight is gifted with magic because why not? She and Twilight then have a common trait they can exploit, which they do occasionally, She’s not invincible of course, she still eventually lost to Chrysalis and the Trio later on but used her experience in combat magic to stall em, see, in Every little thing she does, and a few times elsewhere, it’s shown she is a talented spell caster and writer, able to combine and maneuver spells to her need, that, and her apparent knack for teleportation , is what makes her powerful in a fight, if caught oof Guard or simply overpowered a la Sombra or Chrissy she fails.
 
In addition, I don’t think the writers have gone out of their way to emphasize starlights weaknesses more than any other character, if anything, it’s a crying shame that’s nearly all they emphasize and leave us to find he positives by breaking it down. That’s not pandering, that’s trying to build a character to Complete the fleet as you will, Starlight, ultimately I believe was made to fill the vacancy of the second unicorn after twilight ascended, that’s why there are some similarities, but instead of the bookmare trope they could’ve easily went with again like Moondancer, but instead they went out of their way to build a unique character to fit in with her own quirks, and honestly, it’s worked. Notice how even though they’re still referred to as the mane six and the end focused almost entirely on them and spike, Starlight is still included in said ‘council of friendship’ its probable she just didn’t show up to that one meeting the one time because of other matters, we don’t know what exactly happened, but we know she IS part of the council.
 
 
That was an awfully organized rant, but hopefully you can pick apart the points there

@PaintEdits  
Have a good night.

@Background Pony #FF55  

 
Yes there is, as he’s not an integral part of the story. It’d be like if they had God as a character in MLP, but had no involvement in the plot. That’s a huge difference. Okay NOW unsubing :)

@MLPMVGuy  
Alright fair enough. As long as you’re okay with others having opposing views I’m fine with it. Just going to unsub to this thread as I find myself starting to get heated. G’night everybody.

Kind of forgetting that Starswirl, another unicorn, is confirmed to be more powerful in magic then Twilight, and Gusty the Great, another unicorn, is pretty much confirmed to have been on that level. So there is nothing wrong with Starlight being more powerful too.

@PaintEdits
 
I don’t like the stigma surrounding it, because literally every time I see this, it’s, like I said, coming from actual people who don’t know what the term Mary Sue means, and because it’s always coming from pre-Season 5 elitists who didn’t even see much of the actual show to prove their claims with legitimate evidence. Plus, any discussion about it is usually toxic (not all of course), and sometimes is nothing more than a way to shame people for even liking Glimmer. Or of course, everyone’s favorite, b a i t .
 
And I’m good with people having an opinion about this. I encourage it even. But only to the people who actually have a legitimate basis, and aren’t the people that I just described earlier. You get the idea.

@MLPMVGuy  
is not a good defence.
 
 
@MLPMVGuy  
What’s the difference between the stigma or the opinions of others…?
 
As for the spoilers, I’m not allowed to link the desuarchive (unless a mod greenlights it), but yes Anons leaked episode scripts involving Starlight being more involved in the finale and getting wings.

@AC97  
This.
 
@PaintEdits  

 
Wait is that actually legit? I’ve never heard of that once.

@AC97  
Reformed villains can’t be prodigies?… ‘Kay.
 
Luna is at least an established princess, one who never had major pull in the story. Discord didn’t deserve all his pardons, what did he do with them? Sold out the mane 6 to Tirek, revived 4 villains, gave them a superpowered weapon and got the tree of harmony destroyed and nearly doomed Equestria, but now I’m on a tangent.
 
“I haven’t seen proof she’s actually as powerful as Twilight”
 
Really? Her fighting on par with her in duels? Starlight amazing her? Remind me, how many times has Discord been banished BY TWILIGHT HERSELF?
 
Her losing to Chrys and Sombra is literally just writing. If you saw the Hasbro leaks you would KNOW Starlight was planned to be an ALICORN but they were shelved because she wasn’t popular enough. (literally lurk a little). Why do you think she even was put into the gang with Trixie, Discord and Thorax? You know who SHOULD have been in that? Spike!
 
 
“And Shining Armor and Cadance curb-stomped an entire army, in addition to their leader who one-upped Celestia, who also managed to do so because the former was very powerful.”
 
Their entire power hinged on the Crystal heart. Did you watch the show… or…???
 
“Newsflash: that didn’t accomplish much of anything. He let her hit him, and it did nothing to bind his magic.”
 
SHE STILL DID IT. Who else did that on a whim? The mane 6 with the Elements and the two Alicorns with the Elements. She solo’d Discord… Who are you trying you fool with this? I don’t understand…
 
 
“So she’s a Mary Sue… because she’s not perfect at solving problems, because she fails? Right…”
 
I’m not sure if this is a a failure at reading comprehension, willful ignorance or cognitive dissonance.
 
Please clarify.

@PaintEdits  

 
I just said that I’m only bothered by the stigma itself around it and the notion in of itself. Not that other people have opinions about it.

@PaintEdits
 

 
She’s a reformed villain, who had part of the logic for reforming her being “her magic is powerful.” That’s how the story worked. It would feel weirder if she suddenly sucked with magic for no reason.
 

 
And Luna got pardoned for a repeated usurption attempt. Do you think Discord would’ve still been turned to stone if he was contrite at any point, wanted to befriend others? Do you think Celestia would’ve punished Luna if she managed to talk her down the first time? Because that was the situation Starlight was in.
 

 
I haven’t seen proof she’s actually as powerful as Twilight, it’s just that she comes across as less restrained in power, more refined in some ways, befitting someone not shackled to academic learning for most of her life, and may or may not be noticeably older than Twilight, more experienced.
 
She’s explicitly Chrysalis’ physical inferior, she lost to Sombra offscreen (Twilight was matching him), she lost to Chrysalis after her tricks wouldn’t cut it anymore, she never showed any evidence she could hurt Tirek, which Twilight did, and she was shown to be weaker than a charged-up Cozy Glow.
 

 
And Shining Armor and Cadance curb-stomped an entire army, in addition to their leader who one-upped Celestia, who also managed to do so because the former was very powerful.
 
You would have a point there… if she didn’t have Thorax going for her there.
 

 
Newsflash: that didn’t accomplish much of anything. He let her hit him, and it did absolutely nothing to bind his magic, or inconvenience him.
 

 
So she’s a Mary Sue… because she’s not perfect at solving problems, because she fails? Right…

@MLPMVGuy  
You said and I quote:
 
 
@MLPMVGuy  

 

 
 
As though you’re disappointed people haven’t changed their opinion despite said evidence.
 
Again. I’m fine with you believing whatever you want, but when you claim you’re disappointed with others for thinking differently, that’s what I call into question :/

@PaintEdits  
I never said there wasn’t any evidence to the contrary. I just said I don’t believe she is a Mary Sue, quite the opposite. And of course, the term gets thrown around a shit ton to where nobody can tell what it even means anymore.

@MLPMVGuy  
I’m fine with you believing she’s not, but are you really going to say that there is nothing … no evidence pointing to the contrary ? That would lead others to conclusion that she’s a Mary Sue?
 
@MLPMVGuy  

 
A Mary Sue is a generic name for any fictional character who is so competent or perfect that this appears absurd, even in the context of the fictional setting. Mary Sues are often an author’s self-insertion or wish fulfillment.
 
She literally outperforms Alicorn Twilight, banishes Discord, casually tampered with space and time magic, total intellectual prodigy, ruler of a town, able to convince everyone to side with her. Just because the writers make her screw the pooch with friendship doesn’t mean she’s not a Mary Sue, you know this, right?

@PaintEdits  
Nnnnno. You can have your opinion as much as you like, I don’t really care.
 
Just that I’m disappointed that the whole notion, as well as the stigma around the supposed claim that Starlight is a supposed “Mary Sue” even exists, and still exists. Especially since I believe she’s rather, the opposite.
 
Plus, usually anybody I see who uses that term that she’s a supposed “Mary Sue” either don’t know what that means, or just have a rather toxic mindset. But that’s just something I see.

@MLPMVGuy  
You’re disappointed, that people don’t change their opinions to mirror your own? Uhh… Okay…
 
Edit: changed “upset” to “disappointed”

@PaintEdits  

 
 
Nah nah I’m not upset, just disappointed that comments like these still persist. Guess some things never change.

@Background Pony #1C43  
It’s almost like I can acknowledge efforts made to make her seem like a flawed character and not say blindly as she requires help from the 5 other mane 6 “ohh she’s a perfect Mary Sue”!
 
Crazy how that works, huh?
 
 
@MLPMVGuy  

 
Try not to get upset over other people’s opinions on the internet or you’re not going to have any fun, cheers.