see thats mostly my logic but with the diamond dogs as raritys rival

Everyone: angry and scared
Fluttershy: tf yoy doing

@Background Pony #2762  

 
The episode implies that Suri had a similar experience like Rarity. She seemed to have been a decent pony before she moved from Ponyville to Manehattan.  
I don´t think she is a lost cause.

We need redemption for Dusty (Suri, too).

@lackey_h
 
:|  
<:O  
>:(

@HJSDGCE  
Well… we didn’t want to tell you but…
 
…  
Your hair offends us.

There was a debate in the comments?
 
Why was I not invited?!

@lackey_h  
(I’m still quite amused at the one who claimed Chrysalis had brainwashed every pony in Canterlot in order to be able to sneak in… that claim was so amusingly terrible).
 
-insert Phoenix Wright sweating  
Ugh, yeah… that claim really is that terrible, I can only hope he wasn’t being serious when he wrote that.
 
Anyway, I guess I can see that most bronies refusal to see any antagonist in a positive light as Black and White Insanity (trope) or something like that, since it’s mostly “since they are jerks therefore they could be evil” logic. Well… as long as you know one of the reasons why they are viewed that way I think I can stop debating now and with Iron Will being the poster child of this I understand some more positive views that I over look in the antagonist.
 
Writing of defending them, I think Suri could have been a nice mare herself before whatever happened in the city changed her to be the way she is now. If I think about what happened between Suri and Rarity could have happened between Suri and another pony.

@Background Pony #F4B9
 
Honestly? I’ve defended far too many pony antagonists to really be able to pin the reason on anything less than ‘because people are lazy and find it easier to just lay blame than to actually investigate’ combined with an unhealthy amount of fanon clouding the issue.
 
This is why Iron Will is seen as a villain, why Lightning Dust is to blame for all the failings of the Wonderbolt Academy, why Chrysalis is somehow some super competent and super incompetent villain at the same time and why Sunset Shimmer was apparently kicked out of Equestria for attempted treason.
 
Seriously - these are all things people have argued as being ‘true’ when i’ve defended MLP antagonists in the past. (I’m still quite amused at the one who claimed Chrysalis had brainwashed every pony in Canterlot in order to be able to sneak in… that claim was so amusingly terrible).
 
The next part of all this is the fact that so many fans utterly refuse to accept that their favored characters - be they protagonists or side characters - have any share in the blame for things. This is how we end up with Spitfire somehow not being responsible for anything happening in the academy she holds full responsibility for on account of being in charge of it, or Fluttershy somehow being innocent of all the crap she caused when she went crazy-nuts after listening to Iron Will.
 
And finally… most fans don’t know enough about fiction analysis to take things apart sensibly. You’ll hear accusations of ‘headcanon!’ when trying to explain logical extrapolations or presumed competence, you’ll get blank stares whenever you bring up the issues of watsonian or doylist approaches and, of course, you get the people who are arguing from fanon, not canon or are working with what they think happened as canon rather than double-checking (though i’ve fallen for that myself, it’s an annoyingly easy trap to fall into).
 
 
So… Strictly speaking, yes I can see why people think the way they do of the Flimflams. But far, far too many only think that because others have told them that is the way to think of them.

@lackey_h  
Actually I want to understand your logic as well, but then I lost my internet during the snow day. So I couldn’t see this message until today.  
I had a question which would continue this debate, but I would like to ask this other one first:  
Do you at least understand why people think that way for the Bros. so far?

@Background Pony #ACB5  
It’s true that Iron Will isn’t really a bad guy, but he’s currently the only character in the entire show who can serve as Fluttershy’s antagonistic counterpart. He’ll no doubt be replaced when a less arguable candidate appears, but he’s all we have until then.

I just dont know about Iron will…

What kind of reward do you suppose there is for Trixie’s capture?

@Background Pony #F4B9  
Y’know, i had a nice rebuttal to this but the damn comment thing apparently ate it.
 
Oh well, it’s not like i really expected this fandom to understand the basic concepts of assumed competence anyway.

@HunterSClopson  
This thread indeed

I’m liking this new update.

@lackey_h  
I wasn’t saying everyone is stupid, I’m saying that everyone can misinterpret it, and their actions in that episode proved that no one would have thought it meant the cider specifically at the end of the contest until later because no one didn’t bother to stop the Apples from trying to pack up their things (which probably meant their cider stuff) or stated that Flim and Flam don’t need to take over the farm immediately to use their apples to make cider. Also, during their gloating, the Bros. already strongly implied that the farm is theirs now and that the Apples need to leave immediately. Being specific about the wording of the bet is something a lot of people would think about later after the Bros. started selling the cider instead of happening at the end of the competition where everyone’s emotions is at the highest point. Only someone with a cool head will be able to think about that throughout the entire competition.

@Background Pony #F4B9  
So basically your entire argument is… “no-one had any goddamn clue what the bet’s prize was, despite it being specifically stated by Mayor Mare prior to the contest.”
 
Yeah, uh. Protip man - if you’re going to claim you can rip an argument apart, you’re going to have to come at it with something better than ‘everyone is stupid’ as a counterpoint.
 
Seriously, I don’t even need to debunk most of this because it all bases itself on the singular claim that not one pony had any real idea what the bet was for - despite there being most of ponyville as witness to the original bet deal and Mayor Mare, who would have had to be read into the whole thing if it involved anything official, stating the terms at the beginning of the contest itself.

@lackey_h  
>The Brothers would not have ’the power’ to not allow the Apple family to sell their apples, nor would they have ’the power’ to prevent them from producing cider or from shipping or selling it outside ponyville limits. They would also not own any of the farm, and of the farms fields, any of the produce on the farm or anything sold or produced by the farm because those things were never stated, claimed, implied or assumed to be part of the bet prize.  
I’ll tear that claim to pieces!
 
And I’ll show you how the bet can be seriously misinterpreted to be “The Flim-Flam Bros. get the farm.”  
The first part of the misinterpretation is from dear Applejack on how she keeps claiming on how she would lose her farm. Applejack misinterprets the part where the Bros. could be the only ponies who could provide cider in Ponyville, in the Ponyville part of the deal that could be misinterpreted to her family’s farm because her farm is the only one town that is primarily about apples and anything else comes second. She also misinterprets the “only ponies to provide cider” part as well since even though it doesn’t say that don’t HAVE to use the Apple’s farm to produce the cider but that doesn’t mean that it says they CAN’T use the Apple’s farm as their product to make cider to sell either which leads to my next point in the misinterpretation.
 
Since the betting stated that the winning ponies can be the only ones to sell cider in Ponyville, this could be misinterpreted that the winners can be the only ponies to make and sell cider from Ponyville’s main apple supply. Let me explain, when the Bros. were gloating about how they have control over the farm, it could mean that they too misinterpreted the bet that they could be the only ones to make cider in Ponyville using ONLY the apples found here and what place has the most apples in town? Applejack’s farm. I mean they won the bet to be the only ones to sell cider but they still need to make them and the only closest place to get the apples quick enough is right here in the Apples Farm. From a profiting standpoint why would they need to go all the way to another place to make apple ciders and then go all the way back to Ponyville to sell them there? It doesn’t make any sense for them to do that unless they were truly keeping to the bet exactly as it says and being honest. But due to the gloating, I seriously doubt they would do that when the supply of apples is seriously right behind them and they can simply take the apples from the farm to make their cider.  
Another part of this that doesn’t include where they could get the cider from the bet is that the Bros. were perfectly content on stealing apples from the Apples to make their cider when they first showed up. So even if the Apples would be trying to sell the apples to them for supplies, would they even let them and/or would they buy the apples at an incredibly low price, even bundles of them? I don’t think the Apples would profit very well from the Bros. if the did that because they can use that misinterpretation to their advantage as being the only ponies with the rights to sell the cider in Ponyville that they can still take the Apples from AJ’s farm to make their ciders in Ponyville. As long as they can use that misinterpretation on the Apples they can still come out more profitable than them to the point where the Apple family can’t run the farm. The only thing that can stop them is using the exact wording and logic you presented in your argument about the bet. But due to all the tension and drama that came from the contest, the Bros. can still make their cider by taking the apples unfairly from AJ’s farm until that exact wording of the bet is made out to them.  
In other words, everyone CAN misinterpret the bet as they can be the only ponies who can only MAKE and SELL ciders in and from Ponyville.
 
However…
 
Everything I said just now was just mere conjecture, just as everything you said is the same. Because everything depends on the Bros. actions after they won the competition and IF they didn’t sell a bad product first. You just prove they can still follow the bet the right way and I just prove that can follow the bet wrongly. But we can’t prove that they would do any of those things because they were driven out of town due to their poor decisions and behavior. While I think it’s more likely they would do some of what I said is due to their behavior in the middle and end of the episode and they really could have done what you had said due to the fact they did bring in their own cider the next day after their first appearance and their knowledge as business ponies. But I think it’s time to agree to disagree, because I don’t think they WOULD do what you said like you don’t think they WOULD do what I said.
 
I have to agree that Suri is probably the only in this list who can’t be viewed in sympathetic light. I mean even Gilda could be view in that light due to how her episode played out for and she wasn’t (exactly) following the usual tropes that normally come with “Your old friend is evil” cliché.

@Evowizard25  
Pretty much - though the Flimflams do state earlier on that they can simple go off and get apples from elsewhere… the truth is that would probably end up costing them a bunch in terms of transport - plus there is the issue of there probably not being any major apple orchards in reasonable distance since SAA is so damn big - plus the question of ‘is the next orchard owned by the apple family or not’ because I doubt many Apples would happily supply ponies who are putting other Apples out of work.
 
So yeah, SAA probably could make them leave by just holding back supply for a year or two.
 
 
@Trickquestion  
@LanceOmikron  
It is a fun plot, yeah. And yes the Apples do act exceptionally stupidly - especially when you take the whole ‘ah din’t learn anythin’!’ at the end into things as well (seriously, could she have been any more arrogant with that?)
 
As to the Flimflams planning around how the Apples would or could act… yeah, okay, I can buy that - their stubborness isn’t exactly unknown or anything after all.

Why is it I can see everybody but Gilda turning on Trixie? I can see Trixie using mind control on Iron Will to make him join them and I can see Lightning, Flim, Flam, and Suri eventually planning to turn Trixie in for the reward money offered by the royal guard or whoever the equestrian answer to the FBI is. I can also see Trixie, Gilda and Prince Blueblood planning to turn her in then Blueblood will collect the reward themselves and then Blueblood and Gilda will help Trixie escape custody.

@Trickquestion  
@Evowizard25  
Hmm… maybe the brothers based their con scheme around how they thought the Apple family would act? Perhaps they had already known that the Apples could be stubborn and had a problem with personal pride, and thus used that to provoke them into a competition that they couldn’t win (essentially hustling them. Sort of). The rest of the mane six, of course, was the spanner in the works.

@Evowizard25  
It’s a fun episode, but it’s definitely an idiot plot in every regard. Still, at least the show had already established the Apples aren’t the sharpest bunch around, instead of dumming down characters who should know better.

@lackey_h  
So all in all, The Apples could have simply just not given the brothers any of their apples to make cider with, thus either forcing the brothers elsewhere, or to work out a deal.
 
I know I still love the episode, but with so many other ways the conflict could have been resolved, it had problems.