@CronoM  
Yeah i agree, they completely avoid to make Twilight learning things anymore and its a really big problem since everyone always and will always learn at least 1 thing in a day. Its just impossible to not learn.
 
And yes not just here but even Tumblr. Saying that Twilight shouldn’t be an Alicorn or that you don’t like Alicorn Twilight or how the show is handling her at the moment get you to be yelled and and threaten like shit.
 
I know because a day ago, i defended someone here who post a picture about Twilight saying that they basically don’t like Twilight being an Alicorn and i got threaten like shit and the picture is even tagged as everything about this picture is bad, drama and all that and seriously half of the tag shouldn’t be there so i took them out and i got banned for 24 hour.
 
But… hum, i really like talking with you, do you have skype or anything. If yes, maybe you could give me your name and all so we can add each other ^^

@Solar’s Wrath  
….to be honest, I’d have to agree with you. I know that’s become like a taboo on this site ‘if you don’t like it, get out’ and all that jazz, but I really don’t like what they’ve been doing to Twilight’s character overall in S4. And that extends (to some degree) her scenes in the setup episodes for this season, Episodes S3E1-2 and S3E13. Not every scene of course, but overall they just felt off, the morality and the priorities of Twilight and/or Celestia all twisted and only giving her negative character development only Barbie would be proud of.
 
Plus what was up with Cadense suddenly doing a 180 on her opinion of how she wanted to spend her day?, just so Twilight wouldn’t have to feel bad about her listening to Discord’s whims. I know Discord’s a “villain”,(more like a troll to all things overly lawful and good) but he WAS trying to teach her not to be a complete sucker. To learn lessons sometimes means to feel bad about your actions, and the writers have completely forgotten that for Twilight.
 
Its almost like some episodes have scripts like the better seasons, but then are altered so that Twilight isn’t acknowledged as flawed at all. Hell, the Power Ponies episode was ripe with that kind of detail. It showed that Twilight was actually incredibly weak with non-magic superpowers, and the original writer for the script even admitted she was supposed to represent Cyclops, who’s known on the internet to be the boring leader with a stick up his butt. (he has more characterization then that, but that’s his internet identity). But then they go nowhere with that.

@CronoM  
To be honest since the season premiere, including the premiere, Twilight for me is unbearable. And in Rainbow Fall… I actually really didn’t liked Twilight. What she told Rainbow Dash is something she herself doesn’t even really follow or something that she would apply anyway.

@Solar’s Wrath  
Indeed. And if her power is supposed to develop the more she understands friendship, she’s doing a BANG up job failing miserably. Rainbow Falls had some good ideas and a lot of bad ideas, but the show was nearly unwatchable with Twilight’s holier-then-thou act. And it wasn’t the only episode in S4 that’s been happening.

@Draco_2k  
Yes but no. The relation could be done perfectly but it wasn’t The thing is that the way they approached it, they state that it is one and the same but they show that its two different thing…. And this is because of the Element. They can’t use the magic of friendship without them and Twilight only show magic as spell not as Friendship. This is my point. If friendship was directly affecting Twilight’s magic then it would have been perfectly shown that Friendship is magic. Instead its shown that Friendship is a TYPE of magic, not magic itself but not a type of magic that is actually concrete and useful in Twilight’s study as her principal study in magic is Unicorn magic.

@Solar’s Wrath  
Yeah, it’s a sensible theory. It just doesn’t have concrete proof, but it’d be a good explanation. My headcanon requires quite a bit more magic and badassery to be involved, which is big part of why I like it.
 
But… Uh… Celestia… Luna… The whole thing…
 
I don’t even know what to say about power-levels at this point.
 

 

 
There was a great opportunity here to tie the show together rather nicely.
 
“Friendship is Magic.”
 
Friendship… Magic… The revelation being that they’re one and the same. Hence Twilight’s proficiency in magic would be directly tied to her feelings of friendship, and vice versa, in a sort of nebulous convoluted plot revelation that’d make a bit of sense in the world of colorful equines and the show setting.
 
Alas.

@Draco_2k  
Well from the map of the world of MLP, the planet is round and you can’t have a solar system if the sun resolve around the planet. If the Sun is in the middle of the system its a solar system but here is a planetary system since the sun turn around the planet… Also judging by how the Moon and sun was both in the sky at the same time in the season 4 premiere, the sun and moon are right at the limit of the atmosphere and also the same size and small. With the perspective of when Luna was sealed in the moon. Both Sun and Moon are close to the planet and those two might be the size of a mountain max.
 
As for Celestia and Luna being gods or not. If we don’t base ourself on other mythology and only MLP. Discord is a Greater god, Celestia and Luna are lesser gods. Cadance and Twilight would be Demi God along with Chrysalis that might be closer to Demi God but that there are power that can equal or surpass higher god level. Like the manifestation of pure love can make you more powerful then another level of do like power for a short time enough to defeat Chrysalis who unlike Celestia and the others, doesn’t have a constant magic power but instead can either grow or lower depending on the amount of love she eat and so explaining why she over powered Celestia.
 
 
@CronoM  
Not to say some other characters haven’t been altered or retconned in this season
 
Well the other main character might have changed a bit but they still feel the same character unlike Twilight who is clearly off character because of only 1 thing. She doesn’t learn anything anymore. Even when it wasn’t her who was the center of learning something in the previous season, she was still learning something. Now she doesn’t learn anything at all and when she is used in the plot of the episode, she is mainly used as a way to solve the problem instead of trying to understand it and learn from it.
 
The worst part of this is like i said before. She was asocial and knew nothing about friendship and become an Alicorn that learn nothing anymore while her friends already knew each other and were friends before she came in the group and they are still learning things and doesn’t have reward from it.
 
If you ask me. Her friends know more about friendship then her. She learned from them after all. They should be the Alicorns from that point of view.
 
Its like if you have 2 person. One that know how to program and already example made game before. You send your friend that know nothing about it learn from that programer to then later hire that person as a programer when you know that the one who teached that person have experience and is even free to be hired. While you know that your friend never showed any interest in this.
 
Twilight never showed interest in being an Alicorn or Princess. What she wanted in the first place was to study magic, since its her passion, she showed in her flash back that she loved it. Celestia took her under her wings but in the show its portrayed as she basically wasn’t learning any magic from Celestia, she never got any test about magic ever on screen from her teacher and all we saw is Celestia wanting to learn about friendship. Well it does make sense since Friendship is magic but her’s the catch. Celestia want her to learn about Friendship while on her side Twilight learn by herself what we were shown what her passion is, magic, spells and all that. We saw that in season 1 and 2 and even 3. But everything it come back to what Celestia is doing it her, its back to friendship. That’s the problem. If Twilight was interested in Friendship more then Magic, she would have friend at the beginning… But no she focused on magic.
 
She is then rewarded by being an Alicorn for her study of friendship. This make no sense. If Friendship is really what made her an Alicorn, then why not her friends too? Apparently from what staff said. She self ascended to Alicorn, while all the proof are that Celestia made her one. If she is self ascended then her friend should be too since even Cadence was a pegasus so it have nothing to do with her being powerful in magic. And if its Celestia. Then Twilight was miss-leaded. As in what drew her to Celestia’s school was magic, not friendship. And also as what she most certainly wanted it to be a mage, being given this is bad because she did nothing to earn it and gained power that is too easy for her goal.
 
The whole Friendship is Magic theme became flawed because of Twilight being turned into an Alicorn. Sure its “powerful magic” but its not what Twilight wanted to study. She wanted to study magic as in “Spells” and its what Twilight have shown and its what the comic show better then the show since in the comic with Sunset, we see her learning magic, not friendship, same for Sunset, Sunset’s goal was to be powerful and be a Princess but also magic. While Twilight its only magic.
 
The funniest thing is that if i want to dig deeper. Earth Ponies and Pegasus also have magic right so they have to be able to express it in a way. Pegasus is the weather and Earth Pony its still nebulous but… Isn’t Rainbow’s Sonic Rainboom Magical then? So magical that it can whip out the weather out of the sky. Shake mountain and split solid rocks with a beautiful Rainbow Shock-wave that is obviously magical. Well i remember that Twilight was doing poorly with even levitation with that book in her flash back… And that its only because of the Sonic Rainboom that, well that she showed extreme magic power. Twilight would have never been as good with magic as she is now if it wasn’t for Rainbow Dash. Even if RD only like woke up her inner power… It would have never happened without her as her magic ability were locked… And there is absolutely no reason for these to be released without that Rainboom. Also i remember hearing Twilight saying that there is no magic able to give a cutie mark… But Rainbow Dash used a Rainboom to give every one of them their Cutie Mark… And the only thing else we know that can do that as it happened in MMC… Is the Element of Harmony… This is something often ignored but its there…

@CronoM  
Ah, that. Yeah, it’s a solid theory. It’s not very clear what it is though (which is fair enough, because what does it matter?)
 
I imagine that it’s a genuine solar system, but with sun and the moon going around the planet. Plus maybe it’s a flat world. Going with the whole tradition of how people used to view the world, you know.
 
I think the problem here is the change of staff. Lauren clearly had her own established ideas with the whole sun-god mythos and the way she treated the series, even if things weren’t explicitly established, the world was treated in a way that agreed with her headcanon, so to say. But then that changed. New people, new ideas, new contradictions.
 
Maybe they’re more “developments” than “contradictions”, but it just doesn’t feel right.

@Solar’s Wrath  
Agreed, she is pretty broken in character, both in magic and other aspects. Not to say some other characters haven’t been altered or retconned in this season, but her contribution in this season has been pretty broken even by that standard.
 
@Draco_2k  
“You do know the sun isn’t NEARLY as big as our sun right?
 
Wait, what?”
 
Well that was sort of implied since the beginning wasn’t it? Afterall its moving around the Earth like the moon as stated many times in the show. I’m pretty sure the sun in Narnia isn’t nearly the size of our planet either, heck the planet was flat for goodness sakes. It was only in the writer approved IDW comics, either #5 or #6, that it showed the moon and sun in reference to the Equestrian earth.
 
Either way, its not like I’m saying they aren’t gods to some degree. They are. Hell, Sunlight Shimmer seemed to imply she discovered how they became gods in the first place, and tried to replicate it in the movie (which obviously turned her into a fallen demon instead of a godly alicorn since her heart wasn’t pure).
 
I’m just saying that they’re gods with limits. Depending on your interpretation of Pantheon-like gods, they could be considered lesser or greater gods, both who have had powers compared to AND fought against powerful demons in the same lore.

Man did this discussion grow another twenty or so pages while I was away.
 
Looking back, I think I was going in circles a bit for my part of it. I think I’ll leave it at that. I don’t think I’ve thought hard enough about all of this to hold a proper argument.
 
Background Pony, I know what you’re saying. It’s just… eh. Doesn’t feel right for what I know.
 

 
Oh yeah. That was one of the reasons for the Twilicorn shitstorm, wasn’t it? People couldn’t imagine how the show was supposed to proceed from then on with a demigod among the cast. Now it’s just “Twilight has wings… that’s about it.”
 
Personally, I’d enjoy seeing a change of pace from down-to-Earth adventures into a more nebulous realm of ruling worlds and high magic and whatever… Angel pulled it off, after all. But I wouldn’t trust MLP’s writers with it for a minute. It’s friggin’ hard to pull off.
 

 
Wait, what?
 
Anyway, this still seems to be the biggest hint towards Luna and Celestia being gods as opposed to kind-of sort-of powerful beings (which we know they are considering a couple things they’ve done) as that’s the kind of task that’s relegated to a god in any mythology, big enough to understand intuitively.
 
Even if it’s a small ball of light rather than a giant ball of plasma, it’s still pretty much a symbol of… being.
 
It’s hard to discuss because this is never really addressed in the show. But it sure feels wrong when your expectations are contradicted without any explanation.

@CronoM  
For Sunset with her display, it wasn’t an entrance exam… You know, more like an actually one. Because she is in school maybe? And that you have test and all that.
 
What i wonder is why you try to much to prove that Twilight isn’t an actual student of a school when she passed her entrance exam.
 
Never said that collectively, the council is likely to happen but not just a few like 10 for sure.
 
As for Sombra and all that, it was already out of Lauren’s idea. since her original idea was a whole season story arc with Nightmare Moon at the end and Discord was supposed to be part of it or something.
 
As for Celestia and Luna’s magic, i agree that Celestia might over protected but the way she is show in the actual series. She seems like she let others take care of this.
 
I don’t want to enter in head canon territory though.
 
But the main point what more of Why Twilight’s character is kinda broken now. And we basically went around the whole thing and… She is broken XD

@Solar’s Wrath  
A life without obstacles was exactly what Faust wanted to avoid with the Mane 6. Celestia having plans for her to be her successor was fine, but having her a princess and an alicorn with increased magical power decreases those obstacles. (Not arguing with you on that point, but I just wanted the drive that point home)
 
As the for the school thing, I don’t think so. Several episodes made it pretty clear she spent most of her young life in the palace being privately tutored by Celestia only, like the time-travel episode where the guard of the royal palace recognizes her immediately, and says informally ‘oh hey Twilight.’ And as for Sunset, all they showed was her doing the same ‘display’ for the teachers at the academy to mirror what Twilight did for her exam. Similar, but different circumstances Q: Why would the teachers want to see that if she was already a student? A: It was a display cause she was a personal student of Celestia, not a student of the academy.
 
Sunset was less of a recluse, but was seen as an idol in Canterlot magic users because of her power (but turned people away because of her attitude) And for the record, Celestia listed both of them as ‘her personal students.’ Even if other students considered her a student, its obvious their only teacher was Celestia. That’s my point.
 
I’m not saying that Celestia and Luna aren’t dramatically more powerful then strong unicorn mages or lesser Alicorns like Cadense and Twilight, enough magic to live immortal lives age-wise, cause they are.
 
(There was likely a council of unicorns mages who’s role was to lift the sun and the moon before Celestia and Luna….appeared. Ponies don’t have a hive mind, so I doubt they ALL did it collectively. Just like ALL the pegasi aren’t responsible for the weather every day)
 
I’m just saying considering their eternal duties, its understandable Celestia lost to someone as powerful as Chysalis. Did you notice that while Discord’s seeds sealed away Celestia and Luna’s power, Chysalis trapped Celestia but did not interfere with her magic or kill her? Her race couldn’t exactly feed of a dying, imbalanced world, they needed her alive. I assume the ‘chysalis’ they encased her in prevented her from casting any direct spells.
 
Discord’s power simply supercedes Celestia’s alone. Even a simple deity(in strength) is no match for a 4th-dimensional chaos being.
 
And as for your last point, the only time when they actively don’t try to save the world is the Sombra incident. Lauren Faust went on record that upon Nightmare Moon’s return, she sealed away Celestia and her power, but that ended when Nightmare Moon was defeated. All other incidents were either beyond their power or could be dealt with by the Mane 6. I’m pretty sure Celestia has done plenty to keep her people safe in the past 1000 years; perhaps TOO much since unicorns aren’t as strong as they were back in the past according to the backstory of Equestria.
 
So on the Sombra incident…I have no answer for you. Let me remind you the entire idea of putting Twilight’s homework of how to save the Crystal Empire over the priority of saving everybody in the empire as superceding is absolutely inane. Even Luna gave her sister her doubts. There’s also a lot of unanswered questions on the relationship between Sombra’s existance and Celestia and Luna’s.

*park

@Solar’s Wrath  
she wasn’t in the school, she was having a pinic with Shining Armor and Cadance, and they were in a public part outside that school.

@CronoM  
Well true its not shown that Twilight did enter the school but i’m pretty sure she was in. Its still “Celestia’s School for Gifted Unicorn” and in the comic when we see Sunset who was the star student like Twilight. Sunset was in the school and Twilight was young and in the school too… Soooo my point is there.
 
And yes the Sun and Moon are smaller but still huge Celestial bodies non the less. And in the past. It wasn’t 1 pony who was moving the Sun or moon but ALL the Unicorn because they didn’t had the power to do so.
 
Also recently. A Ask blog showed me a concept that can explain why Celestia and Luna doesn’t do much to defend the country. They don’t want to create an Utopia where ponies would have a life without challenge and so without what makes life, life. So Celestia being took down or her letting Twi save the day. Can be most likely because they just doesn’t do it themselves because it would be too easy. A life without obstacle is pointless.

@Solar’s Wrath  
I agree with you mostly. The only thing I should point out is that Twilight was NEVER part of the school for gifted unicorns. She applied there, but Celestia decided to train her as her private student directly in the castle away from much contact, and Twilight didn’t want any contact but Celestia’s praise for YEARS….even so, your right, if she never completed her training, which Zecora judged as woefully incomplete JUST before she was made an alicorn, they just gave a power boost to a unicorn who hasn’t even mastered her powers yet. Hell ask Flutterbat! Those ARE the facts! Such ease with pony transformation should well below her capability level.
 
I don’t know how much of it was Twilight’s nature and how much was Celestia’s nurture, but if Twilight knew jack-shit about any sort of social or common sense, she would of made friends before Ponyville, and Celestia’s plans to have her join with the other elements to free Luna from Nightmare Moon would of been well and truly effed up. I don’t know if she knew for sure who all 5 elements were, but she could not have possibly not known the one was responsible for their return, RD in ep 23, via an absolutely ENORMOUS Sonic Rainboom. She had to have known they were in Ponyville. In fact, instead of the show treating Twilight like Jesus, I’d like to know a little bit about our main characters. Twilight’s life might be an open book, but we almost know jack about the origins of any of the pegasi main characters.
 
@Draco_2k  
You do know the sun isn’t NEARLY as big as our sun right? I mean its just a bit bigger then the moon, that’s established in the comics. Heck its established in the show they move the sun around the earth…Equestria is a magical universe that was built by anchient understanding of the universe, which is really expected considering its at least 1 or 2 millenia old.
 
Not only that, its a constant drain on her power. If anything, Chysalis, a powered up demon lord with her own army of flying, insect armored succibi copycats with laser beams, could of beaten Celestia outright if Luna wasn’t in control of the Moon now.
 
Instead, the show showed that Chysalis nearly had an anuerism trying to overpower Celestia, who was clearly underestimating her.

One of my biggest issue with this is that it was said nowhere in the course of the show that she wanted to be a Princess or that it was even her goal same for being an Alicorn.
 
Also. Lauren did intended her to be Celestia’s successor but she was never planing her to be a Princess or an Alicorn.
 
We know that Celestia’s school is an open school so Twilight isn’t the only student, they just decided to show one student which is Twilight. This mean that there is a whole education system in place.
 
Twilight’s missive to Ponyville is like a student exchange. She was still studying in that school. But the Celestia say that she finished her study… And so she become an Alicorn… Not this is the big problem because its a school for Unicorn. For gifted Unicorn. Twilight isn’t the only one that is Gifted first because its impossible and second, This school can’t be from the show Canon to raise Alicorn. Because then, we would see much more Alicorn around. Not everywhere but more. Twilight didn’t even really graduated then. She succeeded as “Celestia’s personal student” even though it was never her goal but she failed the school as she never graduated and now that its all done, Twilight doesn’t even learn anything anymore but the things is that you always learn. And this is a major character flaw. Twilight now seems out of place because of that.
 
Now its only her friends that were already friend before Twilight came in that keep learning about friendship and such? While Twilight was an Asocial person? Who knew nothing about friendship? I don’t buy it. And this makes a huge inconsistency in the portrayal on magic too since Twilight didn’t graduated as a mage at all. She was just made Alicorn mid school… Which is dumb.

@Draco_2k  

 
Rules are ought to be explicit by definition, like your example was “superweapon needs an hour to recharge after activation”, or “only a highest level unicorn can perform an age spell”. If there was no explicit statement made, then it’s just an assumption, popular belief, whatever, but not a rule.
 

 
Even before Chrysalis, Celestia was pretty useless against villains. In terms of magical powers, of course.
 

 
You don’t know if Celestia spins the whole world just to raise the sun, or if equestrian sun is a small mountain-sized thing that moves on some magic rails from one giant volcano to another. Similary, you can’t tell how much disasterous would be an eternal night, because it’s a magical land with magical plants and magical ponies. It’s a matter of headcanon too.

@Background Pony #2CD9  
Headcanon or not, the reason people unanimously believed it is because it was so heavily implied even thought it was never stated explicitly (actually a very good world-building trait, credit where credit is due).
 
Then, as the running theme goes, the rules suddenly changed. In this case there’s an escape clause of we’ve never seen a true confirmation of anything like it so it’s not a break from established canon, but it’s a major break from expectations nonetheless.
 
That’s a better case scenario. It can make you shake your head, but it doesn’t retroactively ruin everything. But when you see difference ponies and princesses display god-like powers one moment and be completely useless the next, it becomes jarring (like with that Chrysalis thing, for example).
 
I’m not an Equestrian mythology buff myself, so I just go by what the show seemed to tell me up to that point. It’s, you know, whatever. I think the bigger problem is when similar issues arise with ponies themselves because, isn’t that what we’re all here for?
 

 
Save for a bunch of religious ceremonies involving making the whole world go round. Or, you know, bringing the eternal night that’s an end of the world by any other name. You hear about this stuff and there’s little you can assume except that they’re basically gods.

@Draco_2k  
I know, Celestia’s and Luna’s goddesness was a popular headcanon back then (as well as utopian Equestria), but it WAS a headcanon after all. Headcanons tends to be ruined sometimes, it’s not a writers fault.
 

 
They acted just like you would excpect them to act towards beloved immortal leaders of their land.

@Background Pony #2CD9  
Oh right. I didn’t even remember.
 
Though, in my opinion, things already started to come apart by that time. That bit itself is already odd considering that Luna and Celestia are treated like and, by all means, are portrayed to be god-like before then. You know, with the whole “Two royal sisters ruled the entire world” narration in the very first few minutes of the show.
 
It’s not explicitly said they’re gods, but everyone in the entire world sure acted like it. If they’re demoted in power level all of a sudden, that begs an explanation right there and then - otherwise it feels false, as if it came out of the left field.

@Draco_2k  
According to Hearth’s Warming Eve, unicorns were responsible for changing day and night in the past.

@Background Pony #2CD9  
It’s not, actually. It’s a fairly minor transgression in my book, if it even is that (as you argued earlier). It’s the bigger picture that leaves a sour taste in your mouth.
 

 
Wait, what.

@Draco_2k  

 
I still don’t get it why this transformation spell is such a big deal to you. I thought gravity spell was more impressive. But based on information from the show you can’t tell for sure which one is more advanced than another.
 

 
Unicorns can do that too. It’s Celestia’s duty now, but that doesn’t mean she’s the only one who is capable of doing that.

@Background Pony #2CD9  

 
That’s a fairly decent explanation, actually. But it doesn’t solve the problem of consistency when her apparent power (or knowledge) goes up and down and up and down again from one episode to the next. That’s why when she does things like huge transformation spells it feels like it came out of the blue, or when can’t hold her own in a fight, that feels off as well.
 

 
But that’s a plot hole the size of the moon all on its own. Celestia raises the sun for Pete’s sake, how much more badass can you get? And yet she’s thrown aside by a villain that later got her ass kicked by a couple of newlyweds.
 
The conclusion here might be that she’s a phony god, but… see the problems that start to arise with this? Sounds odd, doesn’t it?
 

 
Here’s hoping.
 
@CronoM  
Oh. Oh no. Inconsistency in characterization is much worse than any silly magic tricks. Makes you feel like you’re acquiring schizophrenia even before you try to rationalize it.
 
For example, it was one thing when Fluttershy freaked out at the Grand Gala - it was out of character, but that’s because we got to see a new side of her revealed under pressure. It was fun. Lots of memes, everybody’s happy.
 
On the other hand, watching Twilight go filly-molesting mad because she missed a friendship report feels wrong because we’ve already seen her snap under pressure several times for much bigger reasons, and her reaction was never this severe. So it seems like a contradiction.
 
Lots of memes too though. But, eh.