What's next in this Drama and What is happening behind the scenes?

ArmadilloEater

French Taunter

@Barhandar
Even so, isn’t it a good idea to at least try to give an open hand invitation to talk? If the other party reacts violently, you won’t lose anything, but if you don’t try, you’ve lost the chance for a civil dialogue.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Background Pony #D6FE

@Princess Luna
You are correct in theory, that unwillingness to work together breeds more of these little conflicts. But at what point will it be clear Dilarius cannot be pleased? At what point are we allowed to say appeasement won’t work?

Dilarius has made it painfully clear he won’t rest until every single Nazi reference is removed from the site. He’s gone after artists, PUBLICLY, shaming them either into capitulation, or to publicly discredit their character. Hell he’s even made not-so-subtle threats at going after Derpibooru’s hosting and patreon services as well. I’m genuinely curious to know what your strategy to calm him down is? Seriously, in your mind, how does the situation play out? What permutation of events is there that will make Dilarius calm down and see he’s getting worked up over nothing?

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Background Pony #606D

@Infinite Winter

Indeed.

@Princess Luna

Just like all people say here, the point is: Dilarus and his members showed it for multiple times that they don’t listen to reason, because they immediatelly say that a person who doesn’t think that ALL nazi pics should be gone from the site IS a nazi sympathizer or a nazi, and that they should NOT be listened to and only eliminated.

In other words, how are you gonna try negotiating with a person who won’t negotiate with you the moment he sees that you’re trying to compromise. They won’t see you as a reasonable person and won’t have any discussion with you the moment they see you’re not gonna eventually do everything the way they want.

Princess Luna

Can’t you see that Dilarus and his followers have this mind set: NO compromises for nazi stuff. They keep screaming about it all the time.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@ArmadilloEater
Yes, but we have.
They could, and did, come here and talk, and the vast majority of deletions in those two threads were stuff like hurling insults, while their bigoted opinions were allowed to stay because that’s kinda the point of freedom of expression.
Meanwhile anyone who’ve tried to discuss it on twitter, instead of pandering to dilarus’s ego or endorsing same opinions, was immediately blocked by them.

@Background Pony #606D

Can’t you see that Dilarus and his followers have this mind set: NO compromises for nazi stuff. They keep screaming about it all the time.

And then foalcon stuff (ironically, given how a whole bunch of them either enjoy or do foalcon themselves, and how the “critical social justice” movement harbors pedophiles). And then it would be something else again. The list of “stuff you must delete before I come back to the site” would’ve grown until Derpi is completely barren, because it’s not about nazis or any other singular specific thing, it’s about bullying you into submission.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

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Patachu

@Princess Luna
That’s exactly what cancel culture is all about. Recently Twitter launched a fatwah against a youtuber (Astronogeek) because they decided to interpret one of his tweets as «encouraging supporting rape» despite they are consenting. then another where he discusses firearm ownership «he’s a dangerous armed fascist!» plus coming back all his debunks about the conspiracy theorists on the moon landings «He’s definitively anticommunist!»
These people want to create enemies out of fucking nothing, and find something to fight.

But let’s keep with a critical approach, if a drawing have been there for 5 years or longer and never been «problematic» like they say, why is it becoming an issue today.

I think I said it earlier but DB is not the only site affected by this sudden turn of events and change of policies to gain positiveness and please the twitterlinas.
You will give one thing, they will say “good” and later they will come for something else that’s suddenly problematic.

It’s all advertising, PR and nothing else.

2021: Inflation and macri is fatphobic
2022: Celestia is problematic because princess is a monarchy thing that killed millions
2023: Stop using hermaphordites and intersexed characters in porn that’s phobic
2024: G4 in its entirety should be cancelled for all the classiism, Disney should change this
and so on. They will never be satiate or never happy, it’s not about it, it’s a sport or a hobby for them and nothing else.

@Barhandar
Everything is «problematic», so at this point let’s just ignore complaints.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

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Background Pony #71A6

@Background Pony #606D
Honestly, staff consulting with sites that have working hate speech policies would be a terrific idea. The current mishmash policy of arguing how many swastikas can dance on the head of a pin before an image is considered offensive has become a complete farce.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Princess Luna

Senior Moderator

Site Developer

Tag Czar

@Barhandar
“In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.”

Posted 3 years ago Report

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ArmadilloEater

French Taunter

@Barhandar
Thing is, when sides are so polarized, a good discussion depends on the people you put around the table, and where you set up the table itself.

Twitter is an awful, awful medium for conversation, and I don’t think the Derpi forums are much better when drama is involved (threads getting derailed and mod locking and deleting etc). I dunno what Nebulon’s idea is when he talks about getting the two sides talking, but choosing something even resembling neutral ground is the first step, and maybe not having a whole horde of screechers from both sides intruding would help too.

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #71A6
Name a single site with working hate speech policy.

@Patachu

2023: Stop using hermaphordites and intersexed characters in porn that’s phobic

So the same thing that happened around 2015? ~hurr durr it’s not futa its trans what do you mean making trans characters solely for porn is fetishizing them it’s not fetishizing when we do it~

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Background Pony #E4C2

@Princess Luna
The problem here is that the people who are willing to compromise have been talking things out with the mod staff with you as a spokesperson.
Not the supposed head of the site who can override TSP, that being Princess Celestia, but you, who is in the same position that Raptorshy was.
The last i saw of Von-Luna was a screencap of a swiftly deleted post asking why they should apologise for any of this.
And TSP, your boss and the overrall arbiter of all the decisions here, is proven to be talking to what can argubably be called the face of the “Change it all” crowd who wont accept anything less than complete capitulation to their demands which seem to getting ever stricter.
And he has still not said a single word to the community that’s willing to actually talk about these problems.

To be perfectly frank, it’s downright insulting to be asking us to be willing to negotiate when we’ve been doing nothing but this entire fucking time.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Princess Luna

“But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.”

@Patachu

Everything is «problematic», so at this point let’s just ignore complaints.

Basically.

@ArmadilloEater
Something like 4chan? Where who you are doesn’t matter, only what your arguments are?

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #E4C2

@Princess Luna
The problem here is that the people who are willing to compromise have been talking things out with the mod staff with you as a spokesperson.
Not the supposed head of the site who can override TSP, that being Princess Celestia, but you, who is in the same position that Raptorshy was.
The last i saw of Von-Luna was a screencap of a swiftly deleted post asking why they should apologise for any of this.
And TSP, your boss and the overrall arbiter of all the decisions here, is proven to be talking to what can argubably be called the face of the “Change it all” crowd who wont accept anything less than complete capitulation to their demands which seem to getting ever stricter.
And he has still not said a single word to the community that’s willing to actually talk about these problems.

To be perfectly frank, it’s downright insulting to be asking us to be willing to negotiate when we’ve been doing nothing but this entire fucking time.

This.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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ArmadilloEater

French Taunter

@Barhandar
>4chan
>neutral ground

Mate are you drunk? I was thinking more of a private chat somewhere, like a discord channel or something, where you can get reliable logs for accountability and let the two sides’ “representatives” explain their views. Of course it’s likely that it will all go tits up, or not even be possible to set up in the first place, but hey, it’s a nice thought.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Background Pony #606D

The logic of Dilarus and his supporters is really baffling.

Okay, here’s a thought experiment, just for the sake of argument:

In Dilarus’s eyes my opinion on the freedom of expression for all arts is an idiotic one, because, as he would say “the results of such actions make it possible for Nazi ideology to infect our community and spread”.

Then, by their logic, I’m being an idiot and thus my inaction allows more nazi things to spread in the world.

Okay. But how does all of that make me “a nazi sympathizer”?

I can be just an idiot who doesn’t agree with the fact that my fight for the freedom of expression results in more nazi ideology infecting people.

I can just have a wrong vision, because I’m a stupid, naive and ignorant person.

But my vision is:
“I do NOT believe that what I stand for will result in more nazi spreading around.
And I don’t sympathize any nazi or neo-nazi people or ideologies at all.”

Then what’s wrong in just calling me “an ignorant idiot that doesn’t understand the consequences of his actions”?

Why do they need to label me (or any other people like me) as “nazi sympathizers”?

Maybe, because they are able to catch and eliminate so few actual nazi people, that they are desperate to find pro-nazi people? Maybe, they simply want to boost their feeling of being important by eliminating people like me to prove their ideas to the world (but not actually having any real impact on actual nazi ideology spread)?

This is all really more than baffling…

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

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Background Pony #606D

@Background Pony #E4C2

Not the supposed head of the site who can override TSP, that being Princess Celestia, but you, who is in the same position that Raptorshy was.

I think, he’s just being busy in real life.

He mentioned it in this comment

I think we all should be patient.

Perhaps, once he has enough free time to properly address the userbase, he’ll publish information that would explain and clarify everything.

The last i saw of Von-Luna was a screencap of a swiftly deleted post asking why they should apologise for any of this.

Maybe it just wasn’t worded well, and that’s why it was deleted.
Here’s the new comment that makes it clear: HERE

I agree with what he says there. It’s a no win situation. So it’s better to move on to more important things at hand.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Barhandar

(twi|pony)booru.org

@Background Pony #606D

Maybe it just wasn’t worded well

You can describe 90% of staff communication in the last two months with these 6 words.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Background Pony #606D

@Barhandar

How are we better though?

Not many people can be good at wording their thoughts. I for one have big problems with it.

Also, I saw a lot of bad examples among the anti-censorship people around here (I’m from that same group, so I have the right to judge).

I’ve seen people acting in the same way as they accuse Dilarus and his supporters to be acting:

by not trying to see any reason in what is said to them, and simply blindly screaming about how bad the site staff is, how we’re all doomed, etc.

There are a lot of poorly handled things by all the sides. Let’s be fair here.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

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Background Pony #E4C2

@Background Pony #606D
First one, understandable, especially this is volunteer work, but it doesnt take much to drop a single line and i can presume they are active enough in their discord server.

Second one, read the 3 replies directly under that.
TLDR: They’re not sorry for whats happened, they’re sorry that everyone is mad at them.

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Background Pony #606D

@Background Pony #E4C2

Second one, read the 3 replies directly under that.
TLDR: They’re not sorry for whats happened, they’re sorry that everyone is mad at them.

First of all, why would I care about some random people’s personal opinions and interpretations of what they read?
They are anonymous. Could just be malicious people from 4chan, etc.

Either way, those people are free to make their own conclusions.
And I’m free to disagree with those conclusions.

I mostly care about what the staff says, and how I interpret it.
There’s no need for people to put words in the staff memembers’ mouths.

Second of all, I believe they have their right to be slightly irritated by unreasonable users, as it’s seen in this comment:

https://derpibooru.org/forums/meta/topics/patreon-pledge-removal-thread?post_id=4871562#post_4871562

Because, the really do try to fix the situation, while a lot of users are being really ungrateful and making a lot of unreasonable accusations towards the staff members.

Of course, there are also reasonable users present. But I’m not talking about them here.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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DragonRanger

@Background Pony #606D

First of all, why would I care about some random people’s personal opinions and interpretations of what they read?
They are anonymous. Could just be malicious people from 4chan, etc.

The irony of you saying that as a Background Pony is intriguing.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Kolbjorn

Banana

honest question: Why are you still here? h
According to all of you the site is dying, derpibooru is doomed because the staff is bending to the will of the “evil swj/leftis/libtards/whatever”, even made post and comments promoting “alternatives”. so, why are you still here?
If the site is beyond salvation and TSP could “nuke it” anytime he wants why are you still hanging around?
Why keep creating thread after thread of the same stuff over an over? why do you waste energy and became angry about all of this is you keep saying that the side is going to die?

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Background Pony #D6FE

@Kolbjorn
Because unlike the Twitter crowd who left without looking back, we actually care about this site, and we’re trying to do everything possible to prevent it from becoming a barren no-fun wasteland. Until the mods finalize their rules, and it becomes clear they’ll enforce them with a heavy bias, the site isn’t beyond saving.

If at the end of all this, the mods still cave to the Twitter mob and the site slowly dies under the weight of their self-righteousness, then at least we can say we tried.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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Background Pony #606D

@Background Pony #D6FE

You’re being way too dramatic.

The site won’t die just because a few arts will be forbidden as obvious propagandas or attacks against real people.

Don’t overexaggerate.

It’s one thing to ban all pics of some OC without good reason, and it’s other thing to be against obviously bad mouthpieces in art form.

Also, it’s physically impossible to be not biased when following rules about such a complex subject.

Every person is a human being, so no matter what you do with rules, some moderators can have personal opinions that would affect their judgement.

It happens to all people.

And it’s not a reason to declare the site dead, just because such things might happen.

Posted 3 years ago Report
Edited 3 years ago

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Background Pony #F079

Deletion reason: Rule #0

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Background Pony #606D

@Background Pony #F079

How about presenting some counter-argument, instead of simply insulting some people here.

Also, I’m not even sure to whom exactly you addressed that comment of yours.

Posted 3 years ago Report

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This topic has been locked to new posts from non-moderators.

Locked 3 years ago

Lock reason: Basically just politics and lots of insulting being tossed about